BLENDING THE ART AND TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF AUDIO MIXING

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today I have two amazing guests. I have Jason Moore, known as Jmo, a front of house engineer, and I have Colin Pink, another front of house engineer for our podcast today. Our podcast subject is Masters of Live Sound, so I'm super excited. Jmo is the front of house engineer for the band Train, and he's been there for 13 years. And we have Colin Pink, who is the front of house engineer for Hans Zimmer Live. And I don't know, Colin, how many years has it been? Oh, hi, welcome, everyone. That gives me time to think. 2014. So 11 years. Oh, 11 years. 11 years. Okay, great. But well, guys, today we're going to talk about sound, delivering sound in live environments for concerts for an audience. And you guys are subject matter experts. So I will ask you the questions. And I think the audience will be real interested. You guys are living the dream every day. So I'm going to throw the first question to Colin. And the question is, how did your career end up working in live sound? Like, how did this? How did this happen? And, and how does it feel to work with some of the most talented artists in the world? Oh, gosh. The second question. Amazing. It's always great. When you when you're working with other people at the top of their game, it gives you a chance to learn as well as share your knowledge. And it's just great to be able to, to get involved with that scene. But how I started was was very different. I started off in theatre. I was a theatre sound designer and technician. I was at 10 years at the National Theatre in London. And that really gave me a great kind of a very broad knowledge because, you know, theatre sound is, is very different to live sounds in arenas, etc. But there's a lot more. There's a, it's kind of a lot broader, because you're dealing with sound effects, you're dealing with being discreet, you're, you know, as well as impressive and loud. And, and there's, there's a lot more scope to get a broad knowledge of everything, which I think is a great training ground for anybody for the live sound in general. And I ended up doing quite a few kind of musicals at the National. Trevor Nunn was in charge at the time and doing, you know, Oklahoma, South Pacific, all those, those old school musicals with big orchestras is the important bit. And so I kind of got a name for doing big orchestral stuff. And that kind of led me into doing like kind of big classical award shows at the Albert Hall and things like the original Blue Planet series, we did an arena tour of that with live orchestra, etc. And, and so, at least in the UK and Europe, I was one of the very few people doing kind of big orchestras in big venues. And actually, I met Hans, he was at the Classical Britain Awards, at the Albert Hall that I was mixing. And he did a kind of 20 minute montage and had a had a great time and was talking to Harvey Goldsmith afterwards about whether Harvey thought anyone would like to come and see him live. And of course, Harvey said yes. And Hans basically said, Well, I've just had a great time here. And everyone said it sounded good. So I'll use that as a sound team. So that's, that's how I got on with Hans. You know, it's sometimes it's that experience. If you like someone, you take them with you. You take them on the road. Absolutely. So, so Jmo, how did you get to where you are as a front of house engineer? And maybe you could tell us a little about what your journey was like? Well, I will say that similar to Colin's story, I was picked up by someone that liked what I did. But my start is very, very different than Colin's. I had a car stereo before I had a car. That's where I started learning about, you know, sound and crossover points and things like that. And then I always play guitar. And I was in a in a job working in paper, a paper mill, all places around like 1995. And my mom was managing a heavy metal band in Gainesville, Florida. And I was in a kind of a twisted relationship with this person. And I just decided to leave and go kind of be around my mom and, you know, and maybe play guitar or hang out with the band and just get into that kind of stuff. So when I got down there a couple months later, my totally yoga under the band and broke them up and like full on, it was mayhem. So she had this stereo system. I mean, a sound system just sitting there. And I was like, you know, I can learn how to use this thing. And I asked her, I said, Can I rent it out? And she was like, Sure. So I started calling nightclubs in Gainesville, Florida. And I found this one venue, rickenbackers. And he's like, I need a sound system tomorrow. And this was a Tuesday, he goes, I got a show on Friday. So that Wednesday, not ever really doing sound for a band, I loaded this Mackie 24, eight and some EW 550s into this club and started doing sound for bands. The very first band is Edwin McCain. Ironically, is opening for train this summer. But yeah, I just started doing sound in this nightclub and figured out how to use a compressor and figured out how to use a gate and figured out that the Mackey 24, eight doesn't have a phase inverter, which I didn't know I needed until I started miking to snare drums. And, you know, just kind of learned it that way. And then one of the bands that frequented that place got signed. And they took out a friend of mine as a sound engineer, they were doing the van trader thing, and he didn't work out, they took out another friend of mine, and he didn't really work out. And then they chose me. So, you know, I went out with this band, Sister Hazel, in the van and trailer, and we did every stubs, every like toads, I mean, we did every crappy venue in the United States over over two years. And then their record went platinum, their song went platinum and the record went platinum. And that kind of opened the door for me. So when when that tour ended, I moved on and found the next band, which was Kenny Wayne Shepherd and did that for a little while and then just cut my teeth, like that, you know, very, very, very like roots, you know, taking a really crappy sound system and trying to make it sound good and helping the sound guy that I'm in whatever town I'm in. And, you know, I've rewired PA systems, you know, two hours before the show to try to get right for this guy and Paducah, Kentucky, you know, Paducah, not everybody's been to Paducah, but I've been to Paducah. I haven't. You haven't. So, Jamie, let me follow up with the question. Is there an artist that was, you know, pivotal in launching your career that you worked with, like someone that kind of put you on the map as to your professional skills? I would go, I would have to, I'd have to go back and say Sister Hazel kind of, you know, Sister Hazel answered me and, you know, we jumped in the van and trailer and we went from, you know, 400 seat rooms to doing festivals for, you know, 20, 30,000 people. So that, that was the two and a half years that I was like, man, I really, really love doing live sound, you know, especially front of house. It's just, you know, I've been offered monitor gigs before and I, you know, a monitor gig is more like a, you're more like a, I don't know, psychiatrist or so you have to work with the mind of the band guys, you know, and front of house is just, you know, it's just power. It's good. I gotcha. Okay. Same question to Colin. Colin, which artist was pivotal in launching your career and what your, what your thoughts are on that? Yeah, it's such a hard question because kind of every, everyone has their place, every experience kind of helps you in one way or another. But the National Theatre, I think I was there 10 years and I mixed, you know, some of the biggest kind of West End musicals and then that moved on to Broadway. So I think my time there just gave me, gave me enough experience on enough high profile shows to convince me that I was okay at this. Because I always think, think, I don't know if you, you think the same Jmo that, that what makes you good is the fact that you always remember the stuff you need to fix. Right? Yeah. So, so you kind of, you're always trying to get better. Which, you know, it can be hurtful because you can, you kind of end up thinking you're rubbish half the time. More than half the time for me. But you know, you know, what always does it for me is, is, you know, even if you've had what you think is a terrible show, you know, at the end of your shifts, 15,000 people applauded. 100%. And, you know, and, and that just makes you think, okay, this is, this is, this is good, you know. So, so, so, so let me follow up Colin with my follow up question. So in your opinion, what skills separate a good sound engineer, a good live sound engineer from an exceptional one? So what's the difference between good and great? And you can be critical of all sound engineers. Yep. Psychology? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I always say I don't care what a show sounds like, I care how it feels. And everyone can learn the tech, everyone can make, you know, stuff sounds good. The, the trick is to involve the audience in the emotional journey of that band's experience. I like that. Now, obviously, I work in in film music a lot, which makes that much more important, but also easier because there is a kind of emotional, you know, film music is all about driving the emotion and helping the audience in the cinema have an emotional response to the narrative. But that for me is the most important thing. Ask me how I do that. I don't really know. But, but I know it's important. Is the audience or response or reaction have any, any bit to do with how you feel about what you're doing? Oh, completely. Yeah. I'll mix completely differently, depending on the vibe of the audience. But also, on something like Zimmer, where we've got 260 inputs, to make a good mix, I'm not basically mixing a song, I'm mixing eight bars, and I'm steering the focus of the audience. So, you know, for eight bars, they may be listening to the strings, and then I'll push the brass a little bit. And then I'll push, you know, whoever. And at the end of it, it feels like, from an audience perspective, it's a great mix, hopefully, because they've heard every instrument. But what they don't know is that, that I'm trying to pull the focus of where I want them to listen, to get that that experience. And the other interesting thing is it's not just sounds, I have lots of conversations with the lighting department. And we end up going, okay, if we want, you know, in my mind, orchestrally, there's always a battle between strings and brass. Because they often counterpoint each other. And so I'll be chatting with the lighting department about what we should be focusing. And vice versa, they get into it. And they'll say, Oh, at this moment, you know, the percussion is doing this stuff. So, so we'll end up adjusting the sound mix and the lighting plots to help drive the emotion in the same way. So that that psychological thing is, is actually really, really important, I think. Maybe not on a four piece rock band, but that's more about energy and kind of pulling and pushing the dynamics. But got it. But yeah. So Jmo, your same thoughts that came down to great good sound engineers and great sound engineers. And what do they do? What's the difference? How do you differentiate? Well, for me, I've always said that, you know, if you ask 10 different people in a venue, how they shot thought the show sounded, you're going to get 10 very different opinions. So I always just try to come up with a average mix. And I don't mean average in quality. I mean, average in feel at you just I want everybody to experience the band. I don't want to be known. I don't want to be I don't want anybody to even know I'm there. So if I if nobody knows I exist, then I feel like I'm doing my job. But for me, it's, it's, it's, it's an average thing. Like I just, I want as many people in that crowd to have as good a show as possible and try to relay. It's not like it's not my show to mix. It's the band show. And I want to, I want to try to translate to the crowd what the band wants to hear and especially with train and 13 years being with the same band, we have a very good rapport with each other about what the final thing coming out of the speakers is and and and we all work together with my tax and I say our taxes and the band and everybody works together to create a this audio experience that the crowd is is hearing so I I just try to not mix for myself as I get older I try to not mix for myself and and mix what the band wants to sound like and what the crowd wants to hear you know okay okay all right I got a follow-up question it was when you started saying you got older and so my question is and and as as all of us are getting a little older how do you stay passionate about what you do with all the required travel and the challenging schedule and you know how do you do it for me it's really if you can get into a situation where you're surrounded by people that have the same kind of work ethic that you do like every tech on stage and every band member is passionate about that show that one single show from pat all the way across the board everybody's passionate everybody supports each other and and that's the technical side of it then there's also the emotional side with that you know you're spending your life with these group of people that you're working with but it's also live with them you have dinner with them you have breakfast you have lunch so putting yourself and finding a a situation where everybody's on the same page and you can lean on each other emotionally and technically I think that for me that's the key and then having a supportive wife a hundred percent that's that's definitely a big part of of a family that understands they support you at home and they understand it makes it tolerable on the road flying out I'll say has never been easy for me and still will probably never be easy but once I jump from the support of my family to the support of our crew you know that that jump once I make it and land with those group of guys and girls once I land there I'm good emotionally and you can start working on your technical aspects and and you know I've never ever and I've been in some really tough situations with bands that I didn't want to be there and they didn't want me there and and I can say honestly though that that hour and a half that I was behind that console no matter how bad it was off stage that hour and a half is a joy to me and and I love it I just when the curtain drops it's Colin you're probably the same way man when that when that curtain drops and that crowd cheers for the first time it's just there's something about it that that that makes it tolerable to be out here yeah absolutely yeah Colin before you jump in I'm ready for your answer I want to say this two things I've learned happy wife happy life okay so I've been married 29 years and and the other thing I wanted to say is it seems like there's a road family and a home family and and you literally have two sets of families that you spend a lot of time with Colin what are your thoughts on this how do you stay passionate with the travel and the and the challenging schedule and everything I mean I've got very little to add you put it so well the the only thing from my point of view is it it's exactly that and I think what happens is is because it's such a team sport as it were you feed off each other's passion you know you you can see the effort that people are putting in and that rubs off on you and you know the other thing I I often tell people you know imagine how people's worth would improve if in an office 15 000 people applauded at the end of your shift um you know it it's it is that that makes it all worthwhile um because you can see see the joy that you're bringing to to a load of people and you know that you can't do that on your um and and it's the team that makes it work so at that point you want to be part of that team got it so so follow-up question Colin um which is the uh most challenging live in environment you've ever mixed it oh so if you had to find a spot what what what venue or what event was the most challenging okay not where he's at right now no he's at the Barclays Center getting ready to do tonight yeah yeah it's a great venue here so uh I was doing uh okay so Blue Planet live so filming of the you know the series the Blue Planet with a 86 piece orchestra as part of the the Linz festival which is held in uh a steelworks so and it's a it's a a running steelworks they put on a show for the town every year they build an auditorium for 5,000 at one end of the steelworks and I did a sound check with an 86 piece orchestra with a running steelworks at 126 db that sounds like a lot of noise and steel a mill yeah yeah yeah exactly and you know and suddenly your back got incredibly hot and you looked past and you know behind the curtain there was molten lead going by um and they they switched off the the machinery five minutes before the show started and switched it back on straight after it finished so um that that was a challenge a little bit of tuning after they turned this machine off yeah completely exactly it's something like you know you could turn everything down 15 db and all that feedback that you just spent four hours trying to get rid of um wasn't a problem so but that one that that was challenging got it Jmo what what do you remember is your most challenging venue and I'm sure there's been one yeah uh I can honestly say uh for me the most challenging still to this day are corporate shows because you know as a band you're a small piece of the puzzle uh an important part but but you know you're a small piece and you know you don't want to come out blazing at 105 db well I don't do that anywhere but you know you just you have to kind of look at where you're at and read the room so when I read the room of a corporate show I know that because you're dealing with a big square box you know usually you've got a wide hang um tons of delays um just weird just it's just different for a band when you're used to doing a a left right show and you come in and you're dealing with zones and and you're in a you know 25 foot trim height and but you're 600 feet wide and 500 feet deep trying to get the band to translate to a rock show but a rock show in a corporate environment where people really want to talk to each other they kind of have to converse to this day walking into a corporate show is is my biggest challenge you know because you not only have to do the psychological thing with the people that are there and not mix too loud you don't you may you know you might have four subs aside in a room that size that are all laying flat and the system engineer that's there probably to his credit has tuned the rig for corporate and for dealing with 400 lav mics you know over the course of three days and they they don't want to be there anymore they're done with it you know and and you they plop your console down and and maybe in the back of the room behind a six foot curtain or maybe you'll be to the left side you know that's the most challenging part for me and and and the challenge of of uh trying to get the band to translate right in that situation or seeing that situation and uh just adapting to it got it okay this question is to cut to Colin, Colin, this question uh you know if you describe your pre-show preparation ritual to ensure a flawless mix what what is your ritual how do you do it you show up and you shake some beads you drink a coffee or what what's the what's the magic you know I think the important thing is turning up early um just I kind of like you know hearing them build the stage and when they're banging something with the hammers listening to what the room's doing and just kind of get a sense of of how the room is going to react and then try and work out what's going to happen when it's full um you know the the shows I I tend to do aren't the really loud ones and and so the effect the room has you know is is quite big um although that the same is for a loud show actually but I don't know why I said that um but it feels like it's it's always good to get to know your room um and just the feel of it and then like before a show i'll just try and sit quietly and empty my head um because I kind of think if you're thinking you're you're missing everything you don't have time to think you've just got to kind of instinctively react when you're mixing um and and from a psychological point of view I think it's always important to to chat with a band beforehand and and find out who's in a good mood who's in a bad mood or whatever um because you know everyone performs differently um and if you just get a sense of what they're going to do it gives you a kind of head start on on what to because you i don't know if you find this um Jmo that you you kind of learn very quickly how the band as individuals react to different situations and circumstances and like like you were saying with the corporate you know where not all the audience are there for you um you get a very different vibe off the audience and the band will react in different ways to that as individuals so you kind of then have to wrangle those different performances into a cohesive whole again Jmo your thoughts on this question what's your pre-show ritual no beads no uh magic um you know wands what are your thoughts you can't really say it no i'm kidding uh you know back in the day back in the day uh I have this funny thing where uh during the opening act we do a lot of um we do a lot of sheds when we tour and I love sheds I love being outside i've loved sheds from back in the days of of radio festivals you know when when you'd be there with 15 bands and you'd be there all day so I do love the the the outside kind of vibe so what I'll do is I'll during the opening band I'll I'll walk the lawn um and just not necessarily to listen to the delays because uh Dana Daniel's awesome uh but uh but uh no I don't have to worry about that I like to walk just to get a feel of the crowd and I like seeing people sit on blankets and I like people enjoying the show from out there and then I once I do that I'll walk to the bus and then about 30 minutes before set change the crew leaves the bus and it's just me and Joel our ld and you know it's just evolved into this thing where we just sit there and we we you know if we like the opening band we talk about it if we don't we'll make fun of them or whatever and antiques road shows playing on the tv and we'll laugh about that and we'll just kind of sit there and just kind of you know talk and hang out and and it's become a little bit of a ritual which I enjoy and uh and then really it's walking out to the crowd walking out the front of house and I'll just sit there for I'll do my 10 minute breathing thing which my wife can't believe that I actually do a breathing exercise but I I feel like if I if I take the time to just sit there breathe and look at the crowd and and just get a vibe you know that that's that's kind of where I'm at it's uh so you become one with the audience you know yeah kind of and then I have this like train is is doesn't limit me on my playlist for pre-show music so I play a lot of a lot of party music a lot of 90s hip-hop and stuff like that and and I and I don't play it low like a lot of guys like to keep it low so they have impact for the show but I like the party vibe and I like going out there and just sitting there and you know when when uh a certain song will come on and everybody will throw their hands up and they'll start dancing and you'll see pockets of people dancing I'll sit there as I'm breathing and look around and and just go man these people are about to have a good they're having a good time and they're about to have a great time and and that's of my has evolved into my quote-unquote ritual so it sounds like both of you guys are technically really entertainers because you you have the like levers and and things you can push buttons that help engage in the entertainment value of the show from not only listening to it how it's mixed but it's very much into the vibe and the sense of the vibe of the audience when you walk in in the room and how you feel it's almost like you're you're I always like shows that you know create a moment you know there's that special moment and something happens and the audience gets engaged and uh and and both whether it's a Train concert or Hans Zimmer which are very very different type of shows uh there's always these moments when the audience is engaged and uh so I'm moving on I have two more questions so this is to you Colin what are the key ingredients for a successful relationship between a front of house mixing engineer and a systems tech because the system tech is there to make sure your speakers are in the right place and and and things are all ready so that you can actually be an artist It's it's kind of mutual respect, I think. I know that's a kind of get out of jail expression, but for me I don't really distinguish between. The mixing desk, the system rack, and the speakers, it's a team of. You know. Front of house engineer, system engineer, text coming together to work together. Do what's best for the audience in that particular room, and that's different in every room, so. I. I I'm not very well, I say I we are very formal about okay, the system engineer is gonna tune the rigs time it and it over to me, it's it's it's kind of fluid because. We we do some fairly unusual things on Zimmer because we got so many inputs and the mix is so dense. I do a lot of time aligning not to the PA but to the instruments on stage, which is not this trick really. So I split the stage into 15 zones and each of those are timed separately to each of the lip fills and to the side hangs as well, and we always split our side hangs low and high. Because you if you want to time it properly to the stage you can't do it with one hand because the angles don't work and that way what you're doing is you're you're focusing the image on to the stage more than the PA. I'm and that helps, it's it's what same thing what you were saying Jmo about wanting to disappear and it being about the band. I think if you can, especially on quarter shows, you know, if you can timeline to the actual. Instruments on stage then your PA disappears and it just focuses the audience on what's happening on the stage as opposed to this big PA. I'm and so I think that's that's quite a lot of overlap between what the system engine is doing and what I'm trying to achieve. I'm so we we basically work together, I mean obviously you know the system has to go up first and then then we time. I'm at that point with which is working together, i'm Yohan or Tom who will Dana you know will listen to some stuff. To get it in the ballpark and then I'll listen to stuff but it's very. Very much a team effort of of what's happening and and again it's experience we we've worked together for so long that we all kind of know what we what we're after so you get that kind of shortcut. Got it you know it's interesting, Dana works on Train as well, so he's a Jmo system tech as well Jmo your thoughts on the system tech working with the front of house mixing engineer, how does that relationship find success. Well I'm gonna go off script for a second, I know this is only an audio podcast but we can see each other through Zoom and I was already complaining about Colin's amazing backdrop of the arena. Right oh man oh man what how do I why don't I have smoke. We were gonna have to put it in afterward but this is an audio only podcast, we can we can use After Effects and we can we can edit it, but this is the secret video version that no one will see, it's it's in the secret zone, but now now the audience knows what we actually do see each other, so back to the question at hand. System tech, front of house engineer, how do you find success and where that that synergy or harmony works, you know, working harmony to make it work together. You know, I've always kind of said that I personally kind of treat my. I kind of treat my systems tech as my mastering engineer, I want him to be part of what's going on and I think one of the probably the most, for me, the most. The most crucial ingredient is trust and trusting that that this guy is is again. Going to, he knows what I like, he he absorbs what I like, he listens to what I like in a in a pa. And and he expands on that rather than just implementing his ideas and then I have to come in and kind of argue with that. So trust is a big deal that I know that when I when I walk out there that it's going to be right and if it goes wrong it's going to get fixed as quick as possible. So trust is a big one, and and this one is is the next one for me, is is friendship, and and I'd like an element of friendship in that relationship because I want to joke around, I want to laugh, I want to have fun. I I want that when I walk out there I I that's important to me because it relaxes me and it and it and it. It just makes the night go better, like like even everybody at front of house we do a fist bump right before the show and that's camera guys whoever's at front of house if it's a wife or a girlfriend or whatever. It's that camaraderie out there and and for me having that friendship with my my systems tech, uh and and combined with the trust factor is is imperative to me and and when that first show starts, I mean the first song starts to that show. You know a good system tech in my mind will just let you do your thing and he you know, Dana specifically, but a good system tech as well will watch every move that you're making and if you look at him, he's looking at you, you know, and and and you you kind of create a, uh you create a, uh an uh. Like an unspoken telepathy kind of thing where you know if you hear something odd, if I look at him and he's looking at me, then we both know right away okay there's something going on, uh after a couple songs I think, uh. A system engineer will walk up and and and go okay let's talk about what's going on if there's anything going on there might not be anything, you know so. Trust, trust and knowing that, uh there's this one show that I had to go to the hospital right before the show and dana stepped right in and he knew the songs and he knew he knew everything about it, so he stepped right in and nailed it, you know because. I trust them and the band trusts them and and and that's not specific to Dana, Dana's amazing but i've had a few system techs over the years that that have been the same way you just start quickly establish a friendship and a trust and and a good system engineer will will listen to what you're doing and and. Again expand on that rather than implement his own opinions and you know what you're doing is wrong and what I've done is right so so that sounds neat all right so I have my last question I'm going to throw this to Colin first. We have lots of listeners, there's hundreds of listeners, how would you encourage any of our listeners, especially that are people that are aspiring to be in the live sound career, what words of wisdom, would you share with them and what path, would you encourage them to. Join this journey like you and jmo did, what what would you advise them, any advice for the audience for a future great sound engineer like you and Jmo. Make friends, make friends it's back to that family thing, everyone. Everyone has come from, you know, some of that formal training, some happens but most of what we do is experience based and. Everyone is very supportive because we've all been through that kind of process of starting not knowing anything and just trying your best and you know and. When you start out, everything you do is is not great you know because you learning and kind of owning owning those those mistakes gives you the freedom to then ask advice. And everyone is really supportive as long as you're you're not trying to pretend you're the greatest thing or. You know trying to hide behind anything that you do suggest be honest with yourself and everyone else. I know that everyone will support you and help you know if you want that help and let's face it we all need help we still do you know. I'm off and asking you know help from from everyone about stuff you know and not just show stuff you know it goes back to that emotional support on the road. And yeah it just allows you to build some really great friendship, so it's it's worth worth investing that that time. I'd say okay Jmo your thoughts, I'm an aspiring sound engineer, I aspire to tour with Train or with Hans or one of the great artists of the world, what what advice would you give to a young person who is a generation or two below us, that's a great question. You know I have had a couple of guys and in my career that have come up to me and asked for advice and I don't want to use the word mentor because because I don't feel that it's it's that's the right word but ask my advice quite a bit on things and have come back to shows and and ask advice and well three people and they're now all very successful in the business, so I'm proud of that. I would say would be like they did you know go to shows and introduce yourself to the sound engineer prior to the show, preferably, and and just you know ask questions again, watch what they do, watch the show, listen to the show, pick out an instrument, listen to the snare drum for an entire song and and. Go back and maybe go to some of your local audio vendors and ask if you can just if they're hiring a patch guy or somebody that work in the shop, maybe go to some nightclubs or or maybe a local band that is in your area and just volunteer your time to do sound for them, I'm sure that they would be. Completely happy letting someone take the reins of that because they normally do it themselves, and and I mean and I can only say that because that's kind of how I I've come, up but I think getting real world real world experience before you choose the academic. Road gives you a better idea of what you're in for and you can kind of gear if you take that the academic route then that can kind of help guide you into what you want to do, maybe you want to do monitors, maybe something appeals to you about doing that you didn't even think about it because you think well the only sound guy out there is the front of house guy, which typically it is at that level. But but I think you know going to shows and trying to introduce yourself to the crew and get advice from those guys and then again maybe going around and going to sound companies and see if they need grunts or go get on a crew where you're pushing cases you know just get in that environment somehow and and have that be kind of what dictates what direction you go got it. Well guys I have to thank you profusely, you both are consummate amazing sound engineers, I'm fortunate to say I get to work with you on shows and I've been to both of your shows you guys and and the sound that comes out is simply amazing, I look forward to future gigs, future environments and I'll be listening for the snare drum, I'll be listening for the brass versus the strings, I got lots to listen to. For now, and this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead, everybody, great job, thank you so much, I wish you well tonight having a fabulous show tonight, Colin I think Jmo you have another week and a half before you have to fabulous show on a cruise boat, guys again thank you so much, Les thanks a lot, thank you, thank you, take care.