BUILDING A CAREER AS A TOURING PROFESSIONAL

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have three amazing guests. I have Nikki Sanz. I have Sean Henry and Andrew Weiss. Nikki is the CEO of Giggs Live, and Sean Henry is the production manager for Train, and Andrew Weiss is the tour manager for A Day to Remember, 21 Pilots, Paramore, Creed, and he has done many, many different bands. Everyone, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Today, our show is dedicated to building a career as a touring professional, and I have some great subject matter experts that have toured for many, many years, and I want to go with my first question. I'm throwing it to Sean Henry. Sean, what's a day in the life of a touring technician? Just like if you could describe a day, what would that look like for anyone who's listening? Well, funny, I just actually wrote this down for a new dressing room person we just hired for our upcoming tour. Typically it starts around 6.30 or 7 a.m. You try to figure out where you are as you get off the bus and where catering is. The important stuff. And then you kind of go to the stage and you just figure out or whatever your gig is, whether it's a stage or backstage, you just figure out what you need to do and what's going to stop you from doing that. And then figuring out those challenges because every day is different. Every day is different, huh? Andrew, do you have anything to add to a day in the life of touring? And do you agree with Sean every day is different? I would say you kind of, you start your morning with your plan and then you spend the whole day trying to get the plan back on track. It's thrown into every obstacle that you face every day. So, uh, you know, a variation on the same theory, I think with, uh, with Sean's explanation is right off with a plan and then you do your best to try to keep it. Yeah. Start off with a plan, throw the plan away, light everything on fire and then start over. Guys. Uh, I, I, I'm just, I'm feeling the optimism come through with the, whoever the one who wrote the plan is Nikki, your thoughts on a day in the life of the touring tech. I think it's funny, Sean. I think, you know, if you're writing that out for your new hire, truly job description is just problem solver. I think if you know how to solve problems can stay calm when a venue didn't provide something that you advanced a month ago or whatever it was, you know, when the plan is not going right, how do you fix it? That's truly that's a day. It's just constant problems that you get to solve problem solving with a smile. It makes it a lot easier with a smile. So, you know, I have a lot of different questions. I want to start with the first one, which is getting off the bus. Andrew, what's it life like on a bus? Like maybe, could you describe it because I don't think everyone in the world really understands what it means to live on the bus. Well, it's taking a batch of people that you may or may not be friends with and living in close quarters for an extended period of time. It can be somewhat like on a good tour, it can be summer camp vibe and on a bad tour, it can be summer camp from hell. You're going to be in close quarters with everybody. So if you do what I do as a tour manager, you try to make life on a bus, you know, good by making the right selection and who you hire and who you how you put people together so that you've got a bunch of people that you can actually tolerate. It's a, it's a weird world that we live in. We're not completely unique when you think of you know, people in the armed forces or fire departments or, you know, people that work in close quarters. But we we have a weird dynamic in that everybody you work with all day long, you also eat all your meals with, and then you go to bed with on the bus. So there's just that weird, weird, different dynamic that we deal with. It sounds like a lot of togetherness. It can be a lot of togetherness. It can be a lot of, and everything goes with fat. I mean, you got, you know, your standard bus, your maximum capacity on the bus is 12 people. So you're hoping you have 12 individuals that you can keep the peace with and find a way to make space, even though you're constantly, constantly around everybody. I always tell people you're, you're a tech 10% of the time and don't be an asshole a hundred percent of the time. Some very wise words, wise words. Nikki, do you have any thoughts about on living on the bus? You quickly find out who is considerate when you're living with them. And then it kind of is, you know, how they end up working. But if you're a good manager, you're going to hire the right people. And hopefully quickly get rid of the people that are causing causing any drama or issues on the bus, because yeah, if you're having an issue with someone, you got to go to bed with them too. You got to go actually, you know, slide into a bunk right next to them. So it's all about who you're hiring. And you said a hundred percent, don't be an asshole, but yeah, we say what 80% good hang. True. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I, I, you know, these are, this is golden nuggets, you know, of understanding bus life, but it can be great. It really can be summer camp. Yeah. It can be just amazing time. You know, if you're spending a lot of time, you have days off together. It can be wonderful. And hopefully it always is. It sounds like it could be like a frat. It can be all good ones. You know, some of these stories, you make memories, you keep with people. I mean, you know, you can, you can go back decades thinking about how fantastic it was, if it was the right group of people in the right environment, you know if you're new to touring, the things that are important are being, you know, being a considerate and conscious, you know, you don't, you don't leave food out. You don't leave, you don't occupy counters. You know, we got 12 people in a very small bathroom. Nobody wants to look at your toothbrush every time they go into the bathroom in the morning. So, you know, being aware, if you're new to touring, you don't have to have it all figured out, but you can be very self-aware so that you don't cause, you know, take up to more than your space on the bus or just, uh, you know, be, be courteous. And I hate the term tour family. Like I've always hated that term, but during the six, eight, three months you were together, you know, that is the closest people you're with. Um, I actually just had a memory of touring with Andrew of waking up and found out he went to the hospital with a semi heart attack and I write Andrew in Virginia somewhere. We had an episode. Yeah. It wasn't a heart attack, but it was a scare for sure. Yeah. I remember it was a scare. And, uh, me and our production manager, of course, immediately we're making jokes about Andrew going through a stress test after thinking he had a heart attack. He was definitely going to fail that. Yeah. Well, well, we can, we can tell you the touring industry and setting up can be stressful, obviously. Okay. My next question is to Sean. Sean, how do you put together a great touring crew? What is your criteria of assembling a great crew? And, and what does that look like to you? That's the biggest challenge of the whole job. Um, you know, I am lucky with the train camp as we've been together for, you know, I've been there six years and I'm the new guy still. We've all been together six, seven, 13, 14 years. Um, but putting a touring crew together is the biggest challenge. Uh, you know, you want everybody to get along, but it's impossible for everybody to get along all the time, you know, and the biggest thing is, is, is being a good hang. You know, the more, the older I get, the more I realize how big of that is in the touring industry, because you're gonna, you're gonna run into crappy days and challenging days. And if people start yelling immediately and just go off the deep end that it doesn't do any good for problem solving and challenges and things like that. So my biggest thing is, you know, obviously you can do the job, but a lot of people can do the jobs, whatever job that is. And at the biggest thing is your personality and, and being a good hang and, and your attitude on things. So it sounds like patience is a really good quality. Yeah. And level headedness. Level headedness. Andrew, any other thoughts of attributes would be good for a crew? You know, building a crew is the challenge. You have people that have their actual physical skillset that you're hiring. You start off with for every job, the real challenge after that, which I think, you know, you as a company owner would know at the HR side of, of, uh, of, you know, running any kind of business, since we travel all together, you know, you get a lot of really talented capable people with a specific skillset and sometimes they're all great at what they do. And it's just not the right fit because you have personalities maybe on off time or thinking, you know, really capable people who don't think, uh, in alignment with each other. So sometimes it's, uh, it can be complicated and it takes a lot of work and, you know, people change over time too. And somebody like Sean has got a band. He's been there for six years as a PM, you know, people's desires their wants changed in their career. So it's a constant, it's a constant moving puzzle that you have to kind of get, get have to refit people to tune into what they're at, what their abilities are, you know, their, their technical skills and their human skills and their ability to get along is that all evolves. That doesn't stay constant, not even through a three month tour. Nikki, your thoughts. You know, the first thing that really hit me that I didn't realize until I got on my first tour was how important leadership is for every single, every single position, because you don't realize that every tour member is leading the stage hands on how to actually put together everything and load in and load out. And so if you're having someone that, you know, their leadership skills are really abrasive or they're really controlling, or if they think that they know the right way to do everything all the time. So I think that's a, it's tough. Um, so I think seeing that everyone on the tour is, is managing somebody locally there, whether that be a stage hand or a production runner or a catering assistant, whatever it is. I do think like someone who can speak well and lead people well is probably, you know, one of the most important things to look for. So, so this question is back to Sean, is it common for storing touring staff to perform multiple roles on a tour? And maybe you could give me an example, um, someone that works on one department and then shifts over to another department for the show. I mean, that was me until yesterday. And mixed monitors for train for the last 18 months, but I think I just hired a monitor guy. No way. Wow. So yeah, I did it for 18 months and had enough of it. Well, well, Andrew, do you, do you find that there are people on a tour that maybe, um, work as in one role and then maybe end up as camera people? Is that something that's common? Yeah. I think it's really common that you can assemble like that. Uh, camera crew is one of those that kind of gets, that it's a last minute thing that usually gets filled in, uh, and your crews, you know, and your staff, most tours, I think, uh, when you're a core crew for the band, um, you know, as opposed to a vendor hire, we, we tend to reshape our crews based on where we're headed. You know, some bands that are arena acts stateside might be, you know, a nightclub act in Asia or somewhere. So you're going to reshift everybody's responsibilities. We shuffle, you know, I think, you know, when you start off in a van and trailer on a small tour, every, every person does a bunch of things, but as those jobs expand, you know, as, as the tour gets bigger, you tend to break off and make people more specialized. But, um, in our world on the, on the artist side, we kind of reassemble our crew based on the needs on a fairly somewhat regular basis. So, so if I, if I'm, if I'm a tech and I'm doing one thing, but you need me to do something else, I kind of have to be flexible. I have to not have an attitude and I'm like, sure, I'll do it. Like on our crew, we're always looking out. Like we can, we can always tell like if our stage manager is five minutes late or something like that, we can get things started. And we're always looking out for other people to make sure everybody else has their space. I need it as you're setting up your world also. So we're kind of always looking out for the other person and doing other roles. Yeah. I think for beginners too, it's par for the course that you're gonna have more than one job, um, if you're just starting out. Um, and that's a really good way to see, you know, is this really for you? Uh, if you're willing to be a production assistant and do hospitality and sell merch, you know, do you like this world? And then you kind of go to the next, the next and graduate. Someone actually just got a job through gigs and prior, he had been the TM, uh, merch seller, uh, PA and hospitality, you know, all in one for years. And finally he just got, you know, the, the big tour manager job now for an opening act. And that's now, he's just tour manager. Um, but still he's doing all the other jobs too. I mean, it's, it's, uh, everyone helps each other out, but it's kind of par for the course when you're first starting out to need to cover a lot of different jobs. Uh, it sounds like no matter what happens, you still have to cover like Sean, no matter what, you still got to do all these things. You got to have -- wear many hats some days. Um, yes. All right. My next question is to Andrew, Andrew, what is one of the most extreme situations you were put into? And, uh, maybe you could just describe, you don't give us as much detail or, or as little detail as you want, but it seems like as a, we started this conversation as tour professionals have to be great problem solvers. And I'm sure you were put in a situation over your many years of experience where it was extreme. And how did you overcome that obstacle? Uh, I've been doing this a while. So, you know, extreme with, would extreme be gunfire at a venue? Would it be bomb threats or power failures in arenas or, uh, cause I've dealt with all of those. Oh my gosh. That, that's, that sounds like different levels of extreme. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, I don't know if that's as far as you want to go. If there's crew issues like trucks and buses that are broken down and you have to shift your day to try to manage a crisis and make sure we all get a show. I think that, uh, you're going to push the boundaries of everything you can possibly figure out as long as you don't cross the lines of, you know, safety for your audience or for your crew. Um, some of the more extreme, uh, situations, you know, that require, uh, thinking and a communication with your venues and your, you know, local, sometimes local officials, police and fire. Fire and medical. Um, am I getting too off topic here? No, no, I know. I, I, what, what, what it is, is the extreme situations. I think with the gunfire of the power failures, what was the third one you said? Um, bomb threats, uh, yeah, I've had, I've had competing promoters call each other, uh, and bomb threat buildings in foreign markets, uh, as a, uh, sort of a vengeance tactic and, um, kind of get caught in the crossfire where promoters are saying, you don't have to worry about any of this. I mean, the fire department police are all showing up, but it's really just this guy. And it's like, I can't take the chance that it's just this guy. I don't know this guy. And, uh, you know, you have to take action to protect your, your band. The famous last words of that, just that guy. Yeah. Um, in, in the terms of a power, we had a pretty colossal disaster a few years ago that led to a riot, uh, over 20 years ago with the band, uh, in an arena where, um, a new arena in a rural market had a, had a power grid failure and we had emergency lighting on in the arena. And we sent in there for about two hours with the full audience, trying to figure out how to get electricity back in for the show. Um, I was young enough where I didn't realize to ask this question and the venue staff didn't think to stop selling alcohol in a somewhat dark house. It was a colossal blunder. Um, so when we actually realized that the power department, you know, the power company is like, we can't get the building up and we were only under emergency lighting at the time. And we actually, after two hours had to cancel, there's a fair amount of damage because they didn't stop selling alcohol. So John, your thoughts, any, any, I, you know, I think the term colossal failure, but extreme situation. I don't necessarily know it was a failure that you can recall that was something you had to overcome. I mean all of that and then you throw weather on top of it with outdoor shows and festivals. Um, you know, definitely here in Atlanta for festival I was doing for a few years, you know, we had to evacuate grounds for tornadoes and high winds and stuff like that. Always a stressful situation. Um, I used to do a lot of cruise ships and we've had a couple of people jump overboard during a show. And so I shut everything down. Yeah. Is that, is that when you really just don't like the show that much? You just have to leave to jump off the boat. Yeah. I don't know. But the same thing with, with Andrew, they, you know, I was at your monitor mix. Yeah, probably. Yeah. It was, it was because, yeah. But like I had to put security around all the production because everything shut down for 12 hours and people were still on the ship wanting to party. So things you never think of, you'd, you'd run into, you're going to run into. That is a, that is very interesting. Okay. This is a question to Nikki. Nikki, are touring labor rates going up and how does this impact touring budgets? Are the labor rates going up? I think that, um, Andrew and Sean will also have great things to say about this too. Um, yes, they're going up. Um, and it's, but it's, it's going up along with all the other costs of touring. Um, and so it's, it's getting, everything is getting expensive and you've seen that with reflected in ticket prices too. Um, so the fans are seeing it too. Um, I be curious too, to hear, uh, Sean and, and, uh, Andrew have to say about this, but you know, I'm, I'm hoping that, and this is just maybe way down the line, but something like gigs where we have people in every market in the U S now, um, we're already in Europe and Australia. The goal is to have so many people in every market so that you could hopefully hire also more local so that maybe if it ends up getting too expensive to, you know, have someone on a bus with you or whatever it is, you can get great, great people locally too. Um, just as all costs are going up. I gotcha. Sean, your thoughts are prices going up for labor? Oh yeah. They're going up. Um, the challenges is after COVID it seems like the prices are not matching the talent that's available sometimes. Um, and I'm sure Andrew, you've run into the same thing too, especially after starting back up after COVID. Absolutely. Yeah. There seems to be a very large hole in the middle of the labor, labor field. So either you have a lot of experience or you have no experience. Yeah. Yeah. Cause a lot of people got out of it to sell houses and do do other stuff during COVID and never came back or coming back slowly. Gotcha. Okay. This question is to Andrew. Um, how do you keep mental fitness while you're on the road? I mean, you described the bus, you described the being together with all these people that you may or may not love. I think that mental fitness is, um, it's a, it's a, it's an area that's been neglected quite a bit in touring historically. And I think it's really getting light. I would say in the past five or six years, uh, some folks like Jim Digby at Event Safe--Safety Alliance have helped shine a light in this area. And I think, um, it's good that we're getting it. Uh, I mean, for anybody new coming in, I think, um, it's always been important to avoid the pitfalls that our industry is historically known for like substance alcohol abuse. Uh, it's important that you set enough time aside to take care of yourself every day with what you eat, whether you exercise, how you find a little personal space for yourself. Uh, I think that people I'm 53 years old. And I think that a lot of people that are younger than me have, uh, we're kind of raised with a little more self-awareness of their personal needs. Uh, when I started, it was a lot of hazing and a lot of, you know, you have to be tough enough to do this. Um, and then I think that mentality is changing a bit, which is going to help our business. There are more mental resource, mental health resources now than there ever have been, which is great. Um, because our business, I think even on the best day is, is still very, very long, uh, labor intensive and, and very time consuming compared to a lot of other career fields, Sean, your thoughts, mental fitness. Uh, I agree. I think in the past it never was really brought up because it was just a tough guy kind of thing. Um, but it is long hours. You're not getting all the sleep you need, which is not the healthiest thing in the world, but I think it's very important to find time for yourself on days off. Uh, enjoy your days off. You know, you are getting paid to go to, uh, many different places and I'm the worst about it, about going to see things and do things and not just see the hotel and a restaurant. But, uh, yeah, I think it's great that there's a lot more resources to take care of. They put electric bikes on the, on the, on the bus, like our, or in the, in the, on the trailers, they put like little scooters or yeah, we've had people do that. We've had some tourists carry bicycles before you can get about four of us. Uh, if you carry a rack and, uh, that's been good, you know, and for some people, uh, just not having to be around other people and being by themselves in a hotel room, binge watching TV is their, their escape as well. So. Yeah. Whatever, whatever makes you feel like yourself. Got it. Nikki, your thoughts. Well, I'd be curious to ask you guys, like, what do you think about the younger generation that's coming up that has way better boundaries and, and kind of is trying to already have that work-life balance? Cause I've found found that I've kind of struggle in giving advice because I'm like, you just got to be the first one in last one out. You got to prove yourself. You know, it's a long, it's a hard job. It's long days. Um, so what do you, what do you guys think about the new generation? And like, will, will the job morph to fit more of a work-life balance for this industry? I think that there's a really like hearing from a lot of younger crew members about what's important to them about their own mental health and their safe space, uh, their, how to create a space that works for them in this industry. Um, I think that there, sometimes I'm aware of a pendulum swing that might go too far in the other direction. Uh, you know, it's, I try to tell people that are so much more self-aware that are getting into this now. I don't, don't fool yourself. This is, this is a 14, 16 hour a day job. This is a job that goes on it. You're still going to have to go. You can't call in and get to take a personal day. Um, you know, and it, it still is an absolute grind. Um, and you know, you don't, you don't hire people to come on tour unless you can get that solid day from them. Um, so I, I try to tell people that are younger that you really have to be aware of this is not for everybody. And as much as our business evolves, it's not going to be easy. Yeah. And shows aren't getting any smaller or simpler. So those 16, 14, 16 hour days are not going to get any shorter. Nikki, I think the answer is the new gen that's coming into the business is going to have to accept the, uh, how do I say the, um, the rules of the game and the rules of the game are long hours. There's a grind and there's a lot of problem solving. Always. It's always taken a special person to do this. Right. Um, you know, I think, you know, I've, I always say I'm, I'm too dumb to do anything else. I've been doing this since high school. So I've really never had another job. Um, so I'm kind of stuck in it cause I have no other option. So, so that takes me to my next question. My next question is for, um, and I'll throw this to Sean and Andrew, um, for touring managers or production managers, how do you handle HR issues on the road? Like, is that part of your job? Like you have to hire and fire or reprimand or deal with people or put them in line, so to speak? We always say in our camp, you're not going to like our HR department. Absolutely. Is that you? Is that you, Sean? It's me and our tour manager. Yeah. Not a lot of sensitivity sometimes, but yeah, that's definitely part of our job and it's definitely a, uh, a, uh, sensitive thing to get around sometimes. Andrew, the mindset on that, the HR goes hand in hand, I think with everybody's personal health and, uh, uh, how to stay healthy on the road. It's, it's something that's gotten more light recently, which is a good thing. Um, Sean's very accurate that the bully kind of the bully mentality or the hazing mentality that came with touring, you know, 25 years ago, uh, it's being pushed by the wayside. And our industry needs to be a little more open-minded to personal needs and HR needs because the massive gap in our employment from COVID. So we need more people. I think, um, you know, when I was in my teenage years, the idea of being on a road crew for a band was, was a little bit scary. It's like becoming a pirate or some sort of, you know, Cardi, just kind of a wild, uh, lifestyle. And it's not really that anymore. And I don't think there's people, there's a lot of young people that don't have that kind of appeal. They like the technology that we use. They like the performance aspect, uh, and they're not going to be hazed to be out here. They're going to, they're going to move on. So if we want to continue to pull new talent, we've got to work on HR, but it's, uh, historically been a bit of a challenge. And that means guys like Sean and I have to maybe control our first impulse. We, uh, have somebody complaining about another crew member. I mean, I feel like 90% of the conversations in the office is to make sure people are taken care of. Yeah. Um, especially once you get on the road, you know, I always take a lap around the stage during the day and check in on people, make sure they're, you know, nobody's seeing red, make sure everybody's good checking in on bus conditions and stuff like that. So I don't know. And, and on my productions, it's very important to me for people to be comfortable and happy as, as much as possible. Obviously the day everybody's going to have bad days, but it's good. Catering important. Yeah. Food usually makes people happy. Yeah. Quality or really angry. Yeah. Food matters. Keeping people fed is, is very important. And after show food, if it's late or cold. Yeah. Everyone's always going to have something to complain about. And so I personally think it's very, very frustrating that the TMS and PMs have to handle the HR because y'all have enough on your plates. And I mean, truly way too much on the off on days and off days that you don't have to be dealing with everyone's drama and complaining that, you know, I, in an ideal world, it's actually a position that someone who is just taking care of everybody, can be that HR, but there's only 12 bucks on a bus. Yeah. It goes back to the third lines of positions. Yes. Okay. I got two more questions. My question is to Andrew, Andrew, what is the most exciting experience you've had in your career that you can recall that was just, you know, off the charts that, you know, brought you lots of joy and you felt really good about you were in the room where you were part of the team or what, what, what was that one moment you can recall that was really amazing. And you were like, damn, it was, I was part of that team. The first, the first time I was a tour manager and brought a show into Madison square garden was really, really exhilarating. Another big moment I think was Woodstock 99 to be there with one of the bands that performed there right before everything went caught on fire. But yeah, I think one of probably the biggest moments is, you know, that first time you go into some place like Madison Square Garden and you're at, you're at the helm of a project that goes in and goes out smoothly. Sure. That's such an iconic venue. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big moment for me. Gotcha. Sean, I agree with Andrew, all those iconic venues. When you go, when you grow up as a kid, you know, like, Oh, I wish I could go there and then you go do a show and advance it and everything goes smooth. And that's great. My, I think, I think we did a show at Radio City Music Hall, Sean. Yeah. With Train. And it's an iconic venue. Yeah. Yeah. I think my biggest moment and it might sound stupid was we did our first show back after COVID was calling the show. Start for that was a big moment for me because we were back, we were coming back because we were back after 18 months or whatever long it was two years. Yes. It was a long grind of not doing live shows. Oh, well, I won't miss that. Nikki, your thoughts on a moment that you had on the road that was exciting. Memorable. Yeah. I think it was my, my first year, uh, the tour went to the gorge in Washington and it was sunset and listening to like one of my all time favorite songs. I couldn't believe that this was a life that I was able to live. I couldn't believe that I had that job. And anyways, I think everyone has that moment on the, especially their first tour of like, this is what I get to do. Um, And get paid and get paid for it and get to be. Oh, my gosh. So yeah, I mean, that's that passion is never though. I'm not on the road anymore. Um, I, that passion has never left for the road and for just the profession. And like, truly my mission to spread it to as many people, especially high school and college kids, that this is a great career and something to get into. Nick, I just remembered my first show at the gorge. Funny story. I come off the bus. And I was the last one off that bus, because I was mixing monitors. And I was, you know, we're lazy. Like 10am. The bus is facing the opposite way from the gorge. So I get off the bus. And I'm like, I thought we were at the gorge today. This is all I see is a stupid building. And I'm walking around. And finally, I get to the end of a long line of buses and trucks and then see the gorge. I'm like, Oh, I'm an idiot. I just turned the wrong way. It goes back to trying to figure out where you are in the mornings. You know, okay, so this is my last question. And I'm throwing it to Andrew first, Andrew, how do we bring new people in the business and get them excited about this the next generation? And what would you suggest for anyone listening to this podcast about, you know, if they wanted to get in this business, what would be a pathway to kind of do that? I usually get students that reach out and hit me up. The first thing I tell them to do is make sure they stick with their education while they finish it. I do touring. So specifically for me, I always tell people to find out about local concerts, local venues, find your local promoter, and find a way to get involved. If you want to do live music, like like I do, then get that education while you're doing it, go find your local event, go find your local club where people are playing, find out who promotes shows in your town, and get in there and do it. And then once you get in there, you know, get yourself exposed to the inner workings and make sure if it's the thing you want to do, I got it education and, and maybe do gigs at night and try to get a stagehand work or try to find a place to start. Sean, your thoughts? I always tell people to start, go to their local sound company, there's always a local sound company or production house. And also, you know, now, not really what around when I was coming up is like companies like yours, Les has training programs. Oh, for sure. You know, I was at VER for years, and we started a training program that was great. But like, you know, starting, starting in your local production house, doing painting speakers or pushing cases or doing stuff like that, you know, you learn a lot from doing all those crap gigs or rodeos and state fairs and street fairs and all those. Those are good character building experiences. There's no bad experience, you learn. I was gonna say, we're proud with our CoiL program that we're able to, you know, bring interns in certain times during the year. We constantly do training on whether it's the newest L2 speakers or the newest consoles or the newest products. We're constantly doing training. That's, that's like a commitment here that just goes on and on and on. So Nikki, your thoughts? How do we get people in the industry? I'm obsessed with your CoiL education program. It's so awesome. So needed. First thing now that you can tell people is to join gigs, you just start seeing the jobs that are posted in the touring world. And, you know, yeah, I always say the same thing, get with your local venues to kind of start getting some kind of experience, volunteer at, you know, different shows, any corporate events, things like that. And then just try to take anyone to coffee, get, get anyone, you know, really just start, start that network because truly the jobs you're going to get are the people, you know, so starting that, that network early and staying in touch and creating really meaningful relationships so that you can get that first gig. You know, what was so great about this podcast today was the real time experience. I don't know, between Andrew and Sean, you probably have a big number of shows under your belt in the thousands I'm going to go with because of the many years you've done this. And Nikki, your insight as to how you're building a database and a way for to connect the people that need jobs to the people who want jobs. And, and who need to fill those roles. I think y'all are amazing. I want to thank Nikki, Sean, Andrew. I thank you for your insight and for sharing it for anyone who listens. There's there's some golden nuggets here on how to enter and what to expect in the touring world. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody. Great job. Thank you so much. Thank you. So happy to be here.