COMING UP WITH AMAZING SHOW DESIGNS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today I have four amazing guests. I have Rick Goodwin, he's the owner and production designer for Rick Goodwin Design. I have Jeff Newburger, he is the partner for Lionfish Design. And I have Rob King, who is the director of design for EventEQ. Everybody, welcome to the show today. Thanks, Les. Thank you. Today's show, it's ironic, today is 9/11. And I'm sure we can reflect a bit on that. Today's show is dedicated to coming up with amazing designs. And every one of you all, in my mind, is an amazing designer, and puts together shows. And we've worked together in some capacity over the many years we've been in the business. And so I really want to talk about design, I want to talk about how you approach design, how a great design starts, and we'll kind of go into that. But I really want to first reflect on September 11. Because I remember where I was on September 11. And I know exactly what I was doing. And I while it's somber for many, I just was curious. So Colin, I'm going to throw it to you. Maybe you could share with us, how was your day starting on 9/11? Well, I'll never forget it. I finished striking an overnight strike about 7am on September 11, in Dallas, Texas. And I was with our good friend, Tom Kervitzky, TEK Productions. And we we were scheduled to fly that morning. I don't remember 10 or 11 o'clock or something. And obviously, we didn't do that. And it was quite the adventure getting home and living through that experience on the road in the first 24 hours, as we drove to the Orlando Airport from Dallas. A nice short drive. Yeah. Rob King, where were you on 9/11? Can you remember or recall? Absolutely. Actually, it was my junior year of college. I was in between classes eating lunch, staring at the TV in my living room. And all of a sudden, the news came on. And it was just jaw dropping, devastating. All the neighbors came over. And we experienced what happened that day. So definitely, as a student stopped everything in its tracks. And I still remember. Sure. How about Rick Goodwin? Where were you on 9/11? Well, I'm three hours behind, I guess. So I was actually just just getting up at home. And I was scheduled to drive into the city. I live over in Oakland across the Bay Bridge, scheduled to drive into the city, I had a fashion show loading in out at one of the piers, Macy's Passport. And I tell you that that drive over the Bay Bridge was very different. Thinking about, you know, the vulnerability, I guess, of all of us. Oh, for sure. For sure. How about you, Jeff? Can you remember? Well, I was, I do remember very much. I was living in New York at the time in Brooklyn. And I was working at a small firm before Lionfish Design called the CPR Group. And I remember riding my Vespa across the Williamsburg Bridge that morning on my way to work, and then getting to our offices were in the film center building. And I remember riding the elevator and, you know, people were chatting about the news, but no one knew the extent of the what was happening at that point. And then I just remember being with my colleagues and watching the news, going up to the roof of the building. And then yeah, it certainly was the life changing moment for for all of us. How far away was that? How far away from from the Twin Towers would be? Well, the Williamsburg Bridge was that's like downtown, right? And then the film centers and Hell's Kitchen film center building where our office was. So mid, you know, midtown, so 60 blocks or so. Yeah. Well, I can tell you all I was in Las Vegas, we were doing the launch of an antibiotic for GSK. And we had set up all the equipment. And I was scheduled to fly home that night, the night of the 10th on a red eye. And a friend of mine was a professional gambler. And he just said, stay the night, hang out with me, everything's free. And I was like, Okay, I'll take the flight in the morning. And I remember my wife calling me up at 6am. And we had this rule about don't call me that early. You know, I'm on the wrong time zone. And she's called me up. I'm like half asleep. And she's like, wake up, wake up, turn on the TV. And I remember that kind of changed our industry for quite some time. And I'm sure it impacted so many lives. And and I remember doing the very first gig with the president. It was in Orlando, George Bush. I got Herbert Walker, it was the sun and we did it at the convention center. And it was rebuilding to take back America and all the things that had come out of it. So So with that said, let's switch back gears back to design, and amazing design. So I'm gonna throw the first question to Rick Goodwin. Rick, for shows of any size and scope, how do you start the design process? What what is your approach to that? Like, what is the very beginning when someone says I want to do a show? What's the budget? For sure. It's always good to know budget. So many questions. You know, what is the purpose of the show? You know, obvious questions? Is it a product launch? Is it a sales meeting? What's the tone? What's the message? But then I try to gather a lot of the just the basic constraints. The first one I jokingly said budget, but venue, obviously, how big is the venue? How many people need to, to fit in the venue? You know, we're basically building a theater from scratch, almost every time we do one of these. And so, you know, I feel it's good to know the constraints, the more constraints I can, I can sort of set up parameters I can establish, it's almost like those things really help guide the design in a way. Got it. One of the first questions, I'll go to the rigor almost immediately and just ask for the maximum top trim of the screen. You know, get stuff like that out of the way. It's a fact finding mission. Colin, do you have anything to add about how you started design? Well, I agree a lot with Rick, I think, I guess we all do a lot of those restrictions are where we start with. I like to ask, you know, what is he mentioned? Oh, and I agree very much with that one as well. You know, what is the vibe of the meeting? You know, what is the goal of the meeting? Is it our, you know, rah-rah meeting? Or is it, you know, something different than that? And so, you know, I like to understand the, the culture of the company that's presenting there also, that because that will dictate where that design might go, you know, as well. Got it. Jeff, your thoughts on where you start for the design process? Yeah, it's important, like Rick said, to figure out the box that we're working within for the budget and, you know, size and load in times and you know, what, what are the constraints? But, you know, once you know those guardrails, we, you know, like Colin said, study the brand, take input from creative directors or producers or clients direct, and then we do a lot of gathering research, you know, thinking about what trends are in the events design industry lately, if that's relevant, and then pen, pencil to paper and, and just start drawing. Cool. All right. Well, I would think design drawing is the ultimate thing that you can't get away without. You got to put some something on paper or digitally. So Rob King, do you have anything to add to this in your process when you start? Other than the fact finding stuff we talked about? No, I think I echo what's already been said, you pretty much become a detective. Don't be afraid to ask questions. No trends before the clients do and, and make sure what you design fits through the door in the venue, you know, all very important. Bidding through the door is very important for sure. But Rob, let me ask this question back to you. Do you look at what they may have done in previous years? Is that part of the fact finding? Oh, absolutely. Especially legacy clients. You don't want to repeat mistakes, but also tells you what they like. And I think was mentioned also to the client's brand, companies spend a lot of time and money, investing in defining themselves and how they're different from their competitors. So getting a grasp on that understanding that is really going to help your cause. We're finishing a show today. I can't mention the client's name. But I will tell you, we had to get just the perfect red. And we spent a lot of time making sure the LED wall had that perfect red, I think, color and is associated with brand. And I think those are very important elements. I'm sure that's one of the things y'all deal with. So my next question, I'm throwing back to Colin here. And what's the typical lead time to get started and developing a great scenic design for a show? And how long is what you you what's the normal? And how long is the process take? Because we kind of talked about a process that you all work through. And, you know, if the show is in this state, how long in advance is a typical, let's start the process? Yeah, so I don't think I don't think I could define a typical I'll start with that I can tell I can talk about what is ideal for me. Because they're all over the place. I've done ones that were, you know, a couple weeks out. And I've done ones, events that were six plus months out. But typically, you know, we're two to three months out from the event. We try depending on the sizes of the event, you know, it's 30, 30 to 60 day fabrication time. So you know that you got to back up before that. So I'm really large events, you know, I'm working on one in November that I've been working on since June. So, you know, a large event, that's pretty normal for me. But I do a lot of small events to, you know, you know, 1500 people meetings, you know, that are relatively small two day event. And there was, you know, those can easily be just a month, a month. Okay, Jeff, your thoughts on your process? And how long? Yeah, about the same. Yeah, I was gonna at first, I was thinking never enough time is the it was the answer that you but that's not that's not always true. Yeah, similar to Colin, it runs the gamut from, you know, we have a proposal due the end of next week, to larger projects that we've worked on in our part of the team, you know, for years, and we're prepping now already doing space studies for an event that will be in May. So, you know, it's very varied. So Jeff, do you typically when you're doing a pitch with a production team, do you have to come up with multiple ideas? You don't have to come up with a one off initial approach? Usually we do I do anyway, I say we because Lionfish Designs partnership. And so we work together, hand in hand a lot. But usually, our process is very iterative. So we'll just like come up with a handful of ideas and narrow them down, or merge a few, essentially, ultimately, for pitches, usually there's, you know, a proposed design to share at the end and do full renderings with but a lot of the times we start with three, four or five different directions. Gotcha. Rob, what is your thought on the timeframe? Well, I gotta be careful what AEs might be listening to this podcast. But this is where, you know, you can prepare yourself with templates, and libraries. And if your hand was held to the fire, you can come up with the concept and 48 hours and hash it out in two weeks. But really, this question reminds me of a YouTube video I saw, and it was of an individual who was drawing Spider Man, and they had 10 minutes, one minute and 10 seconds to draw Spider Man. And as you can imagine, with 10 minutes, you can get the shading and dimension and looked totally awesome. And then with 10 seconds, it looked like the pen exploded on the paper. So that goes for every creative endeavor rule of thumb, more time you have the better product you're going to get. So keeping that in mind. Okay, well, Rick, your thoughts on this and Rick and I, we just got done doing probably one of the biggest shows in the US. We'll stay nameless on that. But I mean, on big shows, how long does it take to put something like that together? I mean, on a show like the one we just finished, I would say there was about a six month process from initial concept to what we saw. In terms of iterations, many comments just now about, you know, the time it takes to arrive at something. And oddly enough, sometimes the design that ends up filtering through the whole process, for me, sometimes is the very first thing I did. And, you know, sometimes it's that first napkin sketch that's done in 10 seconds, that that is the germ of the idea that sustains itself to completion. But with the longer process, there's certainly a lot of time to iterate. And it seems that these days, clients want options, want to see options, we hear that so much. But yeah, six months, it's good. Gotcha. Do you ever do any shows that you have like a month or less to deal with and you have to kind of go into the express mode? Yeah, not so much lately, but yeah, there were plenty of those. Plenty of the October call to get going on something for CES or or a project that we're working on where all of a sudden they need a breakout room. Zippy quick and yeah, so I've certainly done plenty of short things as well. Gotcha. Okay, well, this next question is to Jeff. Jeff, in the past 20 years, what's really changed in the approach on coming up with designs? Did we have renderings that were digital 20 years ago? I'm not sure. I mean, I got into the corporate events industry, building scale models when I left the theater school 20, 25 years ago. So that's certainly changed quite a bit. And then, yeah, I think, so now I don't recall personally doing renderings 20 years ago, but now it's certainly the norm. I would say the pace maybe of the projects has quickened in my experience over the years. But I recently looked back at our old, old website to find some old pictures, and it was funny to see how much hasn't changed in maybe the past 15 years as well. So I think, yeah. I just had to comment on that about looking back. I look back at some of the old photos of shows that I was involved with, and I wonder, and I come from a fabrication side as well as design, and I just wonder how we did it back then before CNC, before computers, before CAD. And I was like, man, that looked amazing. How did we do that? Do you think that technology, you don't appreciate how easy it is now because we have these cool technologies to cut foam and to make wood in exactly the same size as every time? I don't know about not appreciating, but I do, I don't know. It's just very different and very interesting. One quick story was a client came to me and a rose was part of their logo and they didn't want to do it as a 3-dimensional and the production facility that I was using at the time had a 7-axis KUKA router that could cut it. And to carve that by hand, a 5-foot diameter rose, it was just, I don't know. To think of doing that nowadays is crazy to me when there's technology that will practically do it for you. If we were to focus on design software, it's definitely expedited the process. Something as simple as condensing actions into one click. There's aspect libraries with pre-built visuals. You have subscriptions to libraries and vectors and what not. And computers in general have gotten faster as well as the introduction to the cloud and how to utilize that and people all over the world helping you with your endeavor. Rick, 20 years ago, did we use pencils and paper? Was that something we ever used or was that not something we used? Well, I certainly started with pencils and paper and I remember doing seating layouts with pencils and paper and we did a couple of seating layouts and now we do it seems like the same amount of work, the same amount of time is spent we're just generating a dozen seating layouts instead of a couple. So it's odd. Yes, computers have made things a lot easier but they've made it a lot easier to just do more stuff. Yeah, it's just one click, right? One click. Yeah. Jeff had mentioned the scale model which I had found foam core and an exacto knife was a really quick way to find a visual solution and I'm finding now that the same thing can happen in a computer basically building white models in CAD format. Have you ever had to have a model where you have a 3D printer that's actually going to build the model like a small version? I have. You have? I've had to do that for a client before that couldn't visualize the geometric shape of this particular thing so the easiest way to do it was to print a 3D model of it and send it to them. Interesting. Okay, I'm moving on. My next question is back to Jeff. Jeff, do you use any brainstorming process when you have your first meeting with your client? And I have to ask this crazy idea, do you use AI in design? Because AI is such a big buzzword. I just came from a big AI conference this weekend out in Vegas and I just wanted to know, is AI a thing? And also in your first initial meetings with your client, is it a brainstorming process other than as we've talked as a fact finding? How does that work? Definitely no to the AI question for me. I have seen some creative directors try and build some research out of AI, but our process is pretty old school. Typically, especially now since all our calls are Zoom calls or Teams calls, a lot of it is really just fact finding. I've never been a designer who tries to come up with a big idea in the instant to impress clients. I really like to take in all the information and then let it settle a little bit. And then we have a brainstorming process internally at Lionfish Design where there's several designers working on the same project at the same time. But usually that's internal and then we'll present the outcome to our clients rather than a design charrette with clients at the same time. Got it. Rob King, do you have a design charrette with clients as Jeff was saying or what's the process? And do you use AI? Yes, we do. I actually think we have a healthy mixture of both. We have an entire wall in our design department that's dedicated to dry erase board for whiteboarding. You can instantly define shape and scale and interaction. I think that's something we'll always utilize. But we are seeing AI in the design world. We're seeing it in the creation of graphic content in Adobe products. We're seeing it in stylized renderings with 3D. But we mostly use it for initial ideation. The way AI algorithms can analyze tons of data and visuals through text prompts is fascinating. But I will say it's still not a solution for an end product. Got it. So it's in its infancy in the design world based on your experience. Absolutely. Colin, your thoughts? Brainstorming process, AI, design, charrettes. I used AI for the first time in my life in the last five months. I was working on a project that was actually a themed environment. It was a mini putt-putt course. And I had to have a storyline behind it. And I struggled with it. And I was like, well, let me try this. And I didn't help it. I didn't use it for the visuals. But it did help with developing the storyline a little bit and why are these guests going to be interacting in this environment. So that was an interesting thing for me. It was the first time I ever tried it. Typically, if we go back to the beginning of some of our questions, the fact finding. I like to block things out. And scale and proportions and how it fits in the space is so important. And I start with that before I figure out what the actual look is going to be. I need to know where the screens are going to be. How many screens are there going to be? What size is the stage? Where are the entrances going to be? Some of those basic things. And then I start to work the design from that. Got it. Rick, your thoughts on brainstorming to design, charrettes, and AI? So no to AI. And Colin was just touching on something that I also do, which is to try to go back, try to find out how big the screens are going to be. I used to do a lot of hand sketching much earlier time ago. And then when it came time to fit that sketch into a room, it was sometimes a bit of a stretch to discover, oh, maybe the screen the proportion is going to be totally different because the room isn't as big or as bigger. And so yes, I think getting proportions and basic stuff in place is super important. Starting early enough to leave time for the ideas to marinate. I solve a lot of things face down in the swimming pool. And when I come back to something that I've been kind of banging my head against, there's a solution there. That is a swimming break. Nothing bad happens with a swimming break. So let me ask this question to the group and see if anyone has a thought on it. Are we using more digital LED screens and less fabric and physical materials as part of scenic elements? If you go back many years, there weren't LED screens and it was projection screens and there was fabric and wood. Are LED screens taking over? Yes, they are. Would every great show, would you think they have an LED screen on most large budget shows? Yes. But I support the fight back of the scenery. I support pushing back. For sure. I think it's happening. I actually got a project recently that someone said, hey, let's have some scenery. Let's have a physical environment. I think the pendulum is coming back. I think a few years ago it was all LED, floor to ceiling, wall to wall digital experience. And I am hearing clients ask for, give me a mix now. I want LED. I want to bring in the digital content, but I want an environment that LED lives in. And so how to marry those two together, I think is where the pendulum is heading right now. Yes, how do we creatively incorporate content? Les, you got to get us some LED screens that aren't rectangular. You know, we actually just got the curved corners. We have curved corners now so we can make it look like an old TV set if you want to go vintage. Corners are in these days. They are very much in. We just got brand new curved corners. Okay, this question I'm throwing to Rob. Are scenic elements for a show with a live audience, do we consider a potential remote audience? So we're going to build something that we're going to shoot visual videos and we're going to stream something back. Do we consider the people that are going to be watching remotely, not only the people in the live audience? Is that a consideration in design? That's a great question. I think there's always awareness of how your stage is going to look on camera. And simple things like using TV gray finish or making sure you're seated far enough away from the screen so there isn't more ray really helps with the remote production. And essentially the remote audience is looking through a 16 by 9 window and ensuring that a constant clean logo presence is seen is really what I find is on clients' minds. Gotcha. Jeff, your thoughts? Yeah, I 100% have the same experience what Rob has I would say. Gotcha. And Colin and Rick, any thoughts on the remote audience? They're watching? They are watching. I wouldn't say that every show has a remote audience, but definitely a lot of them do. It seems like the audiences in some of these are just too big to fit in any one venue. Right. Whether they're remote at home or remote in another room is a consideration as well. Okay, my next question is to Colin. How do you measure the impact of a great design with an audience? What is your metric of measuring? How do you go to the client and say, gosh darn it this design was so kick-ass. Didn't we do it? How do you get there? Okay, so design is somewhat subjective and what I might think is a great design, the client might not or vice versa sometimes. So you have to listen. We all have clients, right? And that's what we're doing. If we wanted to just be artists, we would all be starving artists and just make art for art's sake. But the reality is this is a business. Just because I don't like it or do like it doesn't mean people look at it a different way. So back to the fact finding and finding out the culture of that particular client and trying to drive towards something you think they might like I think is pretty much the sign of a good design. Rick, your thoughts? Impact to the audience or the great design? I have two answers to that. I think you can if the impact, if the design was successful, you get called back the next year. That's pretty easy. That's a checkbox, right? But you know, if you if you're in the room and and Colin, you know, the same thing. I mean, how do you how do you it is very subjective. But I think as a designer, if you're sitting in the room, you can tell if you if you hit it, if people can see if the audience feels connected to the presenters. Those are the things that things I try to accomplish. Jeff, your thoughts? Yeah, I would say if you get asked again to work on the project is one key indicator and we also do besides, you know, stage and presentation stages. We do some environments, which I'm sure you guys also do as well, more like trade show or branded environments. And, you know, I think those for me to be on site and see how the folks are really interacting is a is a it's clearer in those instances than than necessarily with like a stage set because there's so much that goes into the the production of a of a of an event with on stage with the entertainment with the you know, how well the speakers do or don't do all of the video content and the lighting. So I don't know if that's a good answer to that question. It is a good answer. I'm actually going to add a comment to your answer and say that we're going to show up with video audio lighting LED and we're going to integrate it. So the scenic component becomes an integral part just like video audio and lighting and I think success in my opinion is when everything works together. Yeah, it's almost like a race car where all the and the pieces come together in the car rolls along and and the scenic really wouldn't work without the lighting and the lighting didn't doesn't work without the the audio and the video everything's got to work together to come up with something amazing Rob your thoughts on on this measuring great, you know design for audiences. I guess my short answer would be the level of social media presence. It generates, you know, if if they like it, they'll post it and spread the word. So that's a good feeling. So a lot a lot of vertical pictures on social media. So yes, a lot of vertical even though we live in a 16 by 9 world. Everything seems to be vertical. Okay. This is my last question and you guys are doing great. This goes to Colin first. What are the greatest greatest rewards in working on in the scenic design part of our business and for you personally having done it for many years and I'm curious what everyone has to answer this question because you know, everyone keeps doing it. So you must like it be good at it, right? Colin see your thoughts. Well, I certainly love you know what a client loves the set, you know, I love it when they at the end when they come up and they they thank you and they or they you know, I've had clients, you know, want me to be on stage for the picture at the end, you know as a designer, you know that level of gratitude and joy that comes is amazing. I mean everybody wants to feel good about what they do and when that happens, it's it's fantastic. So, you know, I really I really really enjoy that. I love being on site. I love the excitement of you know, the first session, you know, and boy if there's drama, you know some sort of entertainment involved even more exciting. So I love all the thrill of what happens on site Rob King your thoughts. Oh, yeah, I think as an artist just the fact that your work is being seen it's evoking emotion. It's helping to support a cause or a message is really rewarding, you know going out there and proving that something new and better can be accomplished with your team is always fun. And of course the hugs and handshakes on site in the moment never gets old. Hugs and handshakes Rick your thoughts on working in this business. Sure two things going back to when I used to do live theater. There was nothing like opening night and seeing a cast of actors bring the physical space to life and to some extent that that certainly happens in the corporate environment as well, particularly when the the audience, you know comes in and adds life to the space. But the other thing that I really find rewarding is just working with a team of competent people, you know a show where like we just did where there's a lot of motion and automation involved and working with the rigging team for them to bring that into reality working with a great lighting designer, you know, our scenic designs are nothing if they're not well lit if the audience can't see the presenters audio solving problems. It seems like with audio. We're always trying to solve problems because being visual people. I understand perhaps the least of the audio world, but certainly respect their needs as well. So for me, I would say it's the collaboration that's perhaps the most rewarding. Well, Jeff give us the your final thought on the rewards of working in this part of the business. Yeah. Well, it's it's it's so rewarding to see your ideas that started as a napkin sketch or whatever, you know come to life and have you know hundreds to thousands of people experiencing them. But like Rick has said and you know, these other guys everyone has said it's such a collaborative art form that really just the the sense of working on a team the relationships we've been working with some of the same folks for the past 10 15 years, you know, they're like they're they're strong relationships strong friendships that have developed over the years. So so so much of it is about the process of getting there and the and the folks who you're doing it with. Well, I want to thank all of you for taking your time today to join this podcast. I think every one of you is an amazing design person and I'm fortunate that I get to work with you all in some form or fashion in ballrooms convention centers exhibits. I want to thank Rick Colin Jeff and Rob you guys are amazing. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead everybody. Great job. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Thanks for that.