CONSULTING ABOUT THE CHALLENGES WITH THE RETURN OF LIVE EVENTS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg on The Road Ahead. Today I have three amazing guests. I have Karim Kassab, who's the senior vice president of technical production for Hartmann Studios. I have Greg Lundin. He is the president of ProShows, and I have Chris Casey. He is with DMI Consulting. He's a technical director. Guys, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Les. Thank you to be here. Yeah. Glad to be here as well. Thank you guys. Today we are dedicating our show. As all of you look at the world through the eyes of as technical directors and guys that lead the technical production, the challenges of returning to live, our industry is coming back and is coming back in a blazing roar as quickly as it died. It's coming back and we're going to have some unique challenges. And today we're going to kind of talk about those challenges. And I'd like for you all to opine and give me your thoughts. You know, right off the bat, my first call last night, someone called me on my way home and said, are you getting requests for a vaccinated cruise? And I said, absolutely. And I was curious. I mean, has any of you guys -- Karim, have you heard that comment? Is that something that your team is having a request? Yeah. I mean, so, you know, still going through the balance of COVID-19 impact on our industry and establishing the protocol internally that we manage for our company, and then having clients who may have a different policy than we do, who are beginning to say, hey, you've got a virtual studio, that's awesome. Everybody needs to be vaccinated. It's in the studio. You need to have sort of a safe environment. And then it's like, okay, that's where the COVID protocol. But then now when we start going over to live, we're trying to see what the balance is about people that are going to be on site for us and what we can control both through the venue in regards to vaccination and what the client's going to mandate. I think it's going to be difficult, in my opinion, to guarantee that every single person that's going to be in that environment is vaccinated, and I'd be interested to see in regards to vaccine passports and all that. But yes, we do hear it, though, I think the impact is slightly less than what I expected it to be, that there will be mandates from clients that will require all the production folks on site to be vaccinated, including stagehands, all the way through. So I'd be curious to see how we make that effectively work in regards to different environments and balancing hybrid at the same time. You know, it's funny, Karim, you know, it's challenging enough to find people, but then now all the people have to be vaccinated. Chris Casey, could you open on the same subject about vaccination crews? You think that is going to be a requirement or is that just something people are talking about? I think it's going to be a dream of every client to have a fully vaccinated crew. And for myself as well, I think as you know, as technical director, when we're on site, our whole job is control. We want to control everything we can. And this, I think, is going to be one of the things that we're going to have to live at the fringes of control on. I think Karim said it so well is that the number of people who are working for us and the people who are working for them, and then venues and all of the other subcontracts who might come through. There are so many open ends that I think it's going to be really hard to control. I think it's something I would love to have for crews. I'd love to be able to require that when we're looking out, but I think as long as people are following COVID protocols, it sounds like our clients on our end are going to feel comfortable. I think if we can demonstrate policy and protocol that we're being safe and following as many guidelines as we can, I think that makes our clients happy. I think if we can get vaccinated crews, that's incredible. But we I think we're going to end up at the question really about labor. And it's going to be we need the labor more than we need them to be vaccinated. And so where do we walk that line? It's it's a scary thing to think about. But yeah, I think in the next eight weeks we're going to find a lot of those answers. Chris. That was a very that was like a tweet. We need the labor more than we need them back. You know, I just I that was like a hashtag I really insightful. Greg Lundeen, what are your thoughts? Well, my thoughts are that this is still a political issue. Unfortunately we have we have a governor who says there will be no passports in the state of Florida. So people are going to have to work around that in a different way. I know that cruise cruise lines are starting to talk about insurance for Covid because they can't talk about, you know, show me that you've made it. So they're talking about having insurance. We're going to have to figure out some other way if, in fact, vaccinations are going to be the way forward. I would love to have everyone vaccinated, but political climate, I've already seen certain people who have said, okay, now, now that we're mask optional if you're vaccinated, I've seen people who are railed against vaccinations for months and months and months. Suddenly they say, well, I've been vaccinated for a long time just so they don't have to wear the mask. And that's sort of, well, what's the word I'm looking for? Dishonesty, I guess, is the best word. You know, that's that's something that we're going to have to deal with. So so the honor system doesn't work. Correct. And we're going to have to know that going forward that we can't trust everybody. And we're just going to have to trust that we can do the best that we can for the people that are counting on us. I think Greg is touching on something that is pretty phenomenal. A colleague of mine bought these wristbands that say, hey, I'm vaccinated and a creative director. I was talking to you on her teams like, oh, that's great. So I can just buy that, put that on me. There's no there is no guarantee. So Greg is touching on something. I think that is key in regards to maybe the negative side of people's ambitions. And for me, I know that's a reality and I know that everyone is really interested in getting back to work, being back on site, really getting back into production. And we're lucky that in the US the vaccine is so available. So my hope is that those people that know that they're important and on site have already taken the steps to get vaccinated. But Greg brings up something that I don't know that we don't know how to solve at the current time. So I'm curious to see how that unfolds like Chris in the next eight weeks. And I think I think Greg's point about regional is so important to because some of our biggest markets are where that political climate is a little bit more divisive. Let's say, you know, if we're trying to head to, to Florida or say, Texas, huge, huge venues, the places where we can really do the big shows that get us back in action and get our crews back working, are the places where we might find the most trouble. And I think it's going to be very careful of, like, who has to be the bad guy on site if you're going to start checking, you know, do we do a trust but verify? Can we make sure that everyone is honest, or is it a are we just going to have to let it slide I think yeah. Greg and Karim, you're heading on really, really delicate points that we're going to have to walk. In addition to just general client management. It's hard enough when we're doing our delicate jobs working between vendors. You know, guys, I guess I brought that big elephant in the room here that throw that big topic out, because it was a really kind of contentious topic. It sounds like I feel like personally, for field technicians, I think their livelihood is driven by their ability to work while there's huge demand, I do believe the it just is more convenient for them and everyone if they get vaccinated. I know there's a whole regime of anti-vaxxers out there, but I do realize vaccines are the ticket for us all. Getting back to work in the on site on a live fashion. So that takes me kind of a bigger picture item. I'm going to start with you, Chris. What are you seeing about the return of live events? Just so what, what's your perspective on a live event return? Are you starting to see a little bit? Are you starting to see a lot? Are you starting to see it maybe in the third or fourth quarter? What are your thoughts on that? Where timeline is definitely late third, fourth quarter for stuff coming together and then into Q1 of 2021. But I think the general vibe we're getting from our clients is it is a scramble. They are, I won't say panicking because they're all professionals. They know what they're doing, but they are at a level of anxiety I haven't seen in a while in terms of all of the pressures that we work more directly for producers and production companies, and they are trying to book spaces and book travel, and all of these things are such a hot commodity. It is a pace like I haven't seen in, in maybe the last ten years of just it. We need this decision right now or this thing is going to be gone and someone else is going to book it out from under us. And it's a it's just a mad scramble in terms of the the flurry of emails and inquiries and the answers that need to happen now or that is gone. You know, everyone has one shot to get this booked in the way they want it, and then who knows who gets it next. It doesn't sound very negotiable when you have that that kind of environment. Karim, what are your thoughts? So, you know, we've been we've been trying to keep the pulse, you know, every beat along the way through COVID. And we knew that we wouldn't know when things were transitioned. But we have we started seeing this a couple of months ago where RFPs that were coming in, where it started out, it'd be like 500 person event on site for like quarter, like fourth quarter and then 15,000 hours and then halfway through the RFP process, it's like, oh, let's do 5000 on site. You're like, wait, the room you pick doesn't like. So in regards to the client side and now getting ready for on site, it seems like everybody's watching the big boxes. Who's going to do it first. And that has now already started to fall. And what Chris is alluding to, I think it's going to be. And you also less we're saying it's going to be an avalanche in regards to the amount of work. I think the big thing we haven't mentioned yet is not only will the work return, but the hybrid component will stay. And at that point. Not only are you standing up for normal production, but then you're keeping the hybrid component there. So you need more staff involved. Not necessarily all on site, but the whole part of remote and bringing in and keeping the option open for both attendees and presenters to be there or not be there, but still be part of the show. So in regards to your first question, do we see it coming back? Yes, we've been seeing it kind of brewing, brewing. And now we think it's clicked over where predominantly everything for the balance of the year and definitely for 2022 is all being looked at as in person live events. And from the conversations we've had with our key partners around the US and some globally, they're already getting booked. They're already getting clients saying, hey, can you hold those three months for me? And becoming Impossible now, which will be part of what we talk about, I assume a little bit is how you get your A team together for every single project, and they're already on three other projects at the same time. But yes, we are seeing it coming back. We've been preparing for this. We're trying to gauge it as much as we can. We have to be fiscally responsible in regards to making it through COVID in this industry, and also satisfy all of our clients needs in the way that we do it. And it's going to be an interesting run for the next 12 months in my mind. You know very well stated. You describe this holistic picture. Hey, Greg, what are your thoughts, you know, on the idea of going back to doing these shows and the challenges? I think, you know, everyone is looking forward to it, certainly. And we're still trickling. I'm not seeing my stuff start until the end of October. And from there, I'm hoping it's going to be just, you know, someone's going to pull the string and the bucket is going to dump, but who's going to be an issue short term because people need to work. So they found something else that they're going to have to be able to feel comfortable enough breaking away from their stopgap in order to come on to what they hope will be a return to full time. But I think it's going to happen. And, you know, we'll hold on to your seats. Here we go. You know, I would say you brought up that interesting thing about, you know, Karim talks about the avalanche coming and you talk about the cruise. And Karim mentioned the idea that those people that were doing live are a lot of them pivoted to doing some virtual component. Whether you're an audio person, a media server person, a switcher person, there's a lot of people that did the pivot. And and now we're going back to life. So those people have an option of going back to doing their live stuff, or they can continue doing their virtual stuff. But we didn't, you know, breed more people for our industry, train them. So there's going to be this massive deficit of staff. While there is a normal number of people that are our our demand for all these people, that is going to become a big puzzle that needs to be filled. And I feel like that's super interesting. So let's focus on labor. And, Chris, maybe you could opine on on labor and your thoughts on filling all the labor needs. I think obviously the first thing is we're seeing a challenge. But I think lest you hit a really interesting point, and what Karim was saying to is that the the duality of events, the in-person versus hybrid, you know, are our best A1 that we were working with for years and years is now also our best operator. If I have to go do a show, what slot do I put them in and then how do I replace them on the other side? I think we're finding that a lot of the best people have really locked up good work. That has kept them through, you know, they've been able to pivot and keep themselves busy through COVID, but now we need two of all of them. And, you know, I don't know that there's there's a deep thing to say. People who got out of the industry, I don't think they're going to come back if they found regular work, not with the you know, there's always uncertainty in events. So if you can find a job that fulfills you and is and keeps you going, would you want to come back to this? You know, hopefully people who have found their passion and events will come back. But I'm really worried. I'm worried. Also, I think one of the things that I really think about a lot is, is trucking and labor for movement and freight and logistics. I'm worried that those resources are gone in a way that we can't recover. You know, I can teach stagehands, I can teach people to run a spider, and I can teach people to run an E3. I don't know where you get more truck drivers. It's a shortage already in the country for every industry. But that's a real labor concern that I, I do not know how to fix. And it does keep me up at night. Yes. Interesting. And, Greg, your thoughts on labor and staffing and Chris brought up a great item in his item was the the operator that was the audio person's now the mix operator. So and it could be that you just multiply that by every position. You know, for people that stayed in our industry, they had to figure out what they could do. Greg, what are your thoughts? Yeah. Well, number one, I think at the plus and a positive that that our show crew now has become more versatile, you know, as needs have made it. They've had to learn additional skills, which makes them all the more valuable to us. But it's the it's the non show people, the people that did the loadings and the load outs that I think will have drifted further away than the show people. And yeah, you can, you can call them unskilled if you will in terms of the pushers. But you know the other guys that they're putting the trust together that are, you know, running the lines, they're still sort of vital to us. And those are the ones, I think, that have drifted the furthest. I do think they'll be coming back because I don't think they're going to get they might get a more steady paycheck out there someplace else doing the normal, you know, consumer job. But in terms of our industry, I think our industry pays pretty well. And I think it'll be a drawback if people see that they can once again sort of step off the dock into the water and have some sense that there'll be a boat there waiting for them. So you think the people that have left our industry are coming back when they see that opportunity, and they want to go back to maybe what they love doing instead of working at the Amazon warehouse or in the the local store or what have you. You know, we live in interesting times for sure. You know, I want to change this question, and I want to talk about venues. And do you think the hotel venues will stumble? And this question is to Chris, and I want to know whether or not you think the hotel venues will stumble at all, that in trying to deliver a lot of them have exclusives. Let's say you have to use this maybe the in-house for breakouts or you have to use, you know, but but they they have major staffing issues as well. And I feel like there is so much failure that, you know, the shows are going to be put at risk when you have these exclusive rules. That's just my opinion. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I absolutely agree that, you know, bringing in an exclusive contract agent almost always puts the show in jeopardy. When we can't bring in the crew. We want the team, we want the equipment we want. It's a compromise that that I am as often as possible, unwilling to make. But I also think, you know, that that negotiating position is tenuous normally. And I think we've lost a lot of ground due to COVID in terms of coming back. You know what, we need the venues more than they need us. And I think our our clients specifically, you know, there's there's a finite amount of space for all the events that want to happen in Q4. That being said, I think I think they know that the challenge is coming. I've had some conversations with some entertainment directors and banquet managers, and they they know what's coming. And they're not they're not naive to the part where there's some new staff coming on and that there's there's really high standards that are going to come back. You know, everyone's got to nail that first event or this is going to set up a chain reaction within the events, that events department in that client. That's going to really be be challenging. So I'm hopeful. But there's no secret that events in venues are challenging. Hey, Karim, I want your thought on this. The idea that the hotels are going to fumble, the exclusives that they make you they they make you use the in-house AV company and the in-house AV company may not have the proper staff. So, Karim, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that that's going to affect us? I mean, I know clients when they're told they have to use an in-house provider and they don't have the right staff, that might really impact the outcome of the show, there's no doubt. I mean, this has been something we're contending with for first quarter 22 is the the whole like, you know, going to a popular town and having to be required to use in-house and then finding out that you can't really gauge the quality of that team till you're on site. There's no guarantee on that. And that if that comes up short, that that is just going to be trouble. I mean, it's it's that fence that we ride less. And I know we're kind of in different sides of that depending on what city and all that, but I think it will be a potentially a problem. And where you show up and you know, you're paying for sort of a level people, and then somebody that shows up that doesn't know what they're doing or underqualified or even just short calls. And with the compression, like Chris was talking about earlier, where everybody's trying to get back and getting into the venues. And so the venues are like doing back to back and overlapping. And if you can't meet like a 72 hour loading period because your crew is is underperforming, it's a real challenge. I heard just this weekend we were working on jobs and there was a shortage of riggers in Vegas for a project we were doing, and it put our show behind, and it's that kind of thing which will impact and has like a cascading effect on all the departments. Right. You got to get your rigging in first. So so my next question I'm going to throw this to Greg is, you know, with so much demand, you know, will the hotels have any motivation to negotiate because if they're not going to negotiate, especially on exclusive services or, or the budgets for our clients are going to have to go up, because when there's lots of demand and not a lot of supply, prices go up. Greg, what are your thoughts? Yeah, that's exactly right. And they will you know, I've seen it called COVID penalty or COVID revenge pricing or, you know, like that. And I think there's going to be a lot of that. I mean, when, when the world was crashing down on us and our shows were canceling, what I was seeing from the exclusives was, we're going to hit you for every single nickel of the contract, no exceptions, even for things that that haven't been put in place yet, because we need to protect our own. And I think that that thought is still prevalent going forward is that, look, we got to get every last dime we can get. So we are going to hit you for everything. Interesting. And Chris, your thoughts, do you agree? Yeah, absolutely. I think I think Greg has really hit it on the head that, that hotels are going to need to recoup as much as they can, and, and it's going to end up being trouble for us to try to walk that line of still delivering and still walking, getting all of our needs met while the budget has to be spent on the venue, because that's going to come first for event planners. And I think it's it's yeah. Greg. So right. We're going to get nickel and dime as we go through everything. And I do not know how to how to get out of it. I think it's just going to have to run its course until we, till we stand up or we're going to need some big clients to come in and, and really level set for some of the hotel chains to, to get us back to a position where we can negotiate and deliver better for our clients. Well, I think we'll be able to negotiate more when demand is reduced. Right. But right now, we have a year and a half where very little live shows have happened. Kareem, what are your thoughts on whether the venues will negotiate with your clients at all, or do you think it's going to be, I quote, highway robbery because you know, of all the exclusives and they're just going to have the gotcha moments. So, so to that point, what will be the incentives of the venues? Imagine right now if I'm negotiating a multi-year contract and the venues are seeing everybody coming up and trying to grab time and venue space, what is their incentive to like, oh, I'm going to give you a good deal. I'm going to embolden our relationship. They're going to have us a little bit over the barrel. And that's my concern because of the business coming back with such a rage, I don't think there's going to be that much of an incentive. So I think it's going to be a difficult and expensive period till things normal out in a couple of years or normalize out in a couple of years. That's my thought. Got it. I actually agree with you completely. I've got 1 or 2 more questions. Chris, what do you think about the AV providers that are around the United States? And obviously the number of them has shrunk, the companies have shrunk and their capacities and their abilities to deploy. Will that more impact not only, you know, you're getting increased costs from the hotel side and the exclusives, but there are fewer people to call that can actually execute and deliver. Yeah, it's we're running through a couple of RFPs right now, and it's really interesting to see how people are responding and how that what that does to their pricing in terms of what houses you're coming in from, I think we're going to see a lot of very similar numbers on proposals when people are getting all of their gear from the same central rental house because their inventory was sold off, or they just didn't have it available, or they're quadruple booked and everyone needs to pull from the same stock of, you know, Marco Projectors or whatever it is we need. I think, you know, that that COVID tax that Greg mentioned earlier for the venues. I would not be surprised if we see that come through on AV suppliers and whether they are explicit with it or whether it just is. You know, our pricing has changed for 2022. You know, fair to them. Business is business. But I think there's there's money that needs to be recouped. And I think it's going to be really hard when you're looking at vendors on paper to do that comparison, when you know, in the back of your head that really what's going to make or break it is what is that, you know, E2 operator line item mean who's that person? Is it the person I worked with in 2018 who rocked that show, or is it the somebody new, you know, and if I trust that vendor, I'm going to try to keep that relationship going. But who knows what's behind that line item. And that's what that does scare me. Greg, your thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree? No, I definitely agree. I think in many cases with with the bigger houses such as your own, you know, you got a pile of gear sitting there and I don't worry about that. But it's when we start saying, okay, we're going to have to cross rent this, this and this, because I got six shows wanting the same gear all at the same time, you know, first quarter next year. What do you do about that? And right now everyone's trying to project how many of these things are actually going to pan out and how many won't. So you've got to cover your bottom line and say, we don't know. Let's make sure we're covered. It's understandable, but it's it's going to be an issue for everybody going forward. Yeah. It sounds ultimately like there are going to be bumps in the road moving forward as we return. I think you could almost assess it as the supply chain challenges for our industry. Okay guys, this is my final question. I want to know what are you all looking to the forward to the most as far as going back to live and being in ballrooms with in person cruise. And I just want to hear your thoughts. Chris, what are you looking forward to the most? I think what will be the best moment when we get back is day one of show. When you've run the huge opening video hit and every cue has gone right, and then you're suddenly in your first presenter and everyone takes that one big breath of, we just ran that 150 cue stack through and we nailed it, and now we're in it. That has always felt so good. And doing it for the first time when we're back in a ballroom in a big show and you've got all your all the lights moving and projections up and the LED worked. I can't wait to have that feeling again. When we really nail that opening and deliver that that product that we haven't been able to do for 18 months. I just got goosebumps listening to you describe that. I am so excited about that moment now. We have actually been going back to live and we have live shows happening right now. But but the scale and the size of what you described is what really kind of got me all jazzed. Okay, Greg, your thoughts? What are you looking to the most? Well, it's what he said. Plus one more element. The applause. Oh my God, the applause. Getting that room full of people in there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Greg. Absolutely. You know, that room full of people. So we know we are all together again. You hear them and you feel the applause. You feel the people in the room while we're doing it. Oh my goodness. Can I place my lunch order for some applause with some spectacle and some happy show curtains? And, you know, a little tingly moments as we're getting ready for the lights and the the first, the queue. I mean, all of that sounds just so exciting to me. Well, anyway, guys, I'm super excited about the fact that we're going back to live. And we are. We have some unique challenges as an industry, and we are going to face those challenges and figure out solutions to them. I'm excited that we have, you know, that's a good thing to look forward to. And when we get somewhere in 22 or 23, we'll find some normalized demand. But for the next 18 months, while we haven't had a lot of demand, the next 18 months, we're going to do not only the shows we used to do, but we're going to do a whole bunch of other shows. So anyway, I want to thank all of you guys. Karim, I want to thank you, Chris, and I want to thank you, Greg. You guys are amazing. I look forward to seeing you in a ballroom and a convention center somewhere where we get to deploy and have fun doing what we love. Again, this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Thank you guys. Good job. Thank you so much. Les this is great. Thank you.