CREATING A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LIVE EVENTS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have three amazing guests. I have Mark Herrera. He's the president and chief security strategist with the Global Awareness Professionals, GAP, or GAP Global Training. That's quite a good title there. Mark, we're glad you're here. I have Dominic Housiaux. He is the principal and founding member of Risky Business Resources. And I have Timothy Wimbley. He is the executive director and co-owner of Events TNT. Everyone, welcome to the show today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Les. Thank you, Les. So guys, today's podcast is dedicated about event safety for our audience. I know the term event safety can come up about, are we going to act safe in putting in the equipment and hanging it properly? And there's a lot of definitions of safety. But today, we're going to focus on the safety of the audience, the attendees, the presenters, and all three of you are safety people and professionals in security. And so I'm super excited to have this discussion. Who would have thought safety could be so exciting? I think it's exciting to go to events and everyone to leave and no one getting hurt. To me, that is like a super exciting thing for us to have attendees show up and feel safe. And they're in an environment where we've spent some time and energy. But I want to hear what you all have to think, not so much what I have to think. So Mark, I'm going to throw the first question to you. Why does event safety matter to our audiences today? In your opinion, what are your thoughts? So, Les, first of all, thank you for having myself, Timothy, Dominic Housiaux on your podcast. Honored, truly a pleasure as to what you're trying to accomplish here. Listen, event safety is critical, but you said it best just now, Les. Here's the thing. Back in the past, it was too much safety and security within facilities or venues. Brings that level of paranoia and that level of uncertainty as to whether should I attend the event or not. In today's world, it's more of an expectation. So people expect that. So event safety, it matters. The world's changed. We live in an evolving threat landscape. It's not going to change since 9/11. So threats today are dynamic, whether it's active assailants, severe weather, crowd surges, as we experienced with a major event coming out of COVID, and just medical emergencies. So for audiences, safety isn't just about preventing the worst. It's about creating an environment where they can relax and enjoy themselves. So a safe event builds that trust. If people feel safe, they return. If they don't, they're not coming back. Dominic, your thoughts. And by the way, Mark, I totally agree with you. I actually think sometimes safety is more about perception than the reality. It's because whatever efforts we deploy for safety may not really, you know, that may be a high degree of safety or a low degree. But if people feel safe, then they have the, that makes them at ease. Dominic, what are your thoughts? Well, I would just like to build on what Mark is saying, because I couldn't agree more. You know, basically, people are paying to be safe at an event, right? They're paying for a great experience. They're paying to be safe. They have a reasonable expectation of that. You know, one of the things we like to talk about is you should be taking creative risks, not safety risks. You know, put the fun on the stage, put the fun for the experience in the room. You know, a lot of large events, if you go to something like the NFL, they have a training called Fans First, which trains over 5,000 people on the Super Bowl that indicates to the person who meets the attendee in the parking lot has just as much impact on the experience of the Super Bowl as the people, as the game itself. And so, you know, you can't simply throw it on, well, it's security's job, or it's this job. It's the entire product that has to be focused on that. And, you know, people should have a reasonable expectation that they can go and have a good time and make it home in the same condition, roughly, as they arrived. I think that is an awesome concept. That withstanding, sometimes people may indulge in an alcoholic beverage, but nothing at the event should be something that puts their life at risk. Timothy, what are your thoughts on this? I think that event safety and security matters because the audiences today are more aware of risk than ever, whether related to health, security, or crowd control. They expect organizers. There's an expectation that organizers prioritize their well-being and safe environments. They build trust, comfort, and positive experiences. I also think that a lot of show organizers and event organizers don't necessarily, if security to them in the past has become a necessary evil more than, and so they pressure sometimes the security providers to cut costs. But as a security professional, we also have an obligation to let them know how much it matters and to not give in to those needs to say we need to reduce the costs and compromise security. So because of that exposure, there's a great expectation as to what matters in security. I can just pick on something that Timothy was referring to. Let's be very clear about something. There is no qualification required to be an event organizer. And that's really important to understand. You can organize an event with zero qualifications. Hopefully, you hire some smart and qualified people, but there is no expectation or requirement that you be qualified. And Les, let me go to Tim, what Timothy just said as well, which is huge. That is, we put cost in front of everything. And I'm going to tell you right now, it's not, what's it going to cost to protect the event? It's going to be, what's it going to cost post-crisis if you don't? Oh, what's the potential failure, the situation you're creating, where what we knew up front and what we could have planned for could have been avoided with some common sense, smart, intelligent conversation and great planning. And I guess what you're trying to say is event safety, like every element of an event, whether it's talent or production or food, it's not free. Right. And it should not be compromised in any way, shape or form. And so when clients that say security matters, when they come back to those security providers and say, well, this other company has a lesser rate or they will, that's when we have the obligation to stand up and say, but this is what you need. I think the economic reality is everything we do, but they have to realize there are some things that are things they can't compromise. There's, you know, it's interesting when someone goes into an arena, the arena has a security requirement that they say you have to pay for so many people. And as you rent the arena, these are the obligations that you sign up for. I think in all the different environments we work, they all have different levels of risk. And there's a lot of components to making smart decisions. But that takes me to my next question. So I'm going back to you, Mark. And the question is, where do you start a conversation regarding event safety with a client? Like, what is step one? We're going to have an event. I'm the event organizer. And then where do you start with planning a safety plan? I'll tell you what, who better to query that information than the client, right? So I always begin by let's ask the client about their goals. What kind of experience do you want your audiences to have or do they want their audiences to have? From there, then we start talking about the risk that could derail that experience, because it's not about overwhelming them with fear. It's about showing them how safety planning protects all of their guests, their brand and their investment. So I think that would be a good starting point. And I always say that sometimes they say, well, too much information on safety and security and risk breeds paranoia. On the contrary, preparedness beats paranoia. Okay. Dominic, your thoughts? So, yeah, I boil it down to three categories, which kind of echoes what Mark's talking about, which is reputation, money and sustainability, right? I mean, you're absolutely right. You don't want to lay it on too thick. But we all have a lot of people think that you can mitigate liability by creating onerous contracts that puts the liability on somebody else. And you can't, you know, a waiver doesn't function if it is considered onerous. So one of the things I say to people, if you want to reduce your liability, meet your responsibilities. And that way, the best way to do that is by managing it from a safety point of view. I mean, from a reputational point of view, what if, you know, sometimes you need to personalize it, you know, per Mark's point, the client that you're dealing with who's doing the event, you don't want to overwhelm them. But sometimes they need some arguments for the executives and the people above them who don't really understand what's involved. And the thing I like to point out is person killed at insert party with biggest name at your event. Meaning if it's some obscure band you've never heard of at Madison Square Garden, Madison Square Garden is going to give you the headline. If it's Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift is going to be the headline followed by Madison Square Garden. So a lot of Xena executives understand reputational harm in a way that they don't understand other things to do with it, right? And the other thing that nobody's pointing out to look at a positive aspect of this post pandemic, you can hardly get cancellation insurance for any event. So if you're taking a safer approach and you're doing a risk assessment, you are mitigating many of the hazards that will cause a cancellation. You're actually protecting your investment. And so that's something that leads to sustainability. And if you're not making it a sustainable event, you know, people should have a reasonable expectation. They invest their money carefully. It's expensive to go to some of these events these days. And so you want them to be a brand that you can trust. You know, it's really interesting to think about security as an investment. I really like that theory, because if you don't take it that way, then you might be looking at it just as an expense. And like what Timothy was saying, and they don't like that expense. Timothy, what are your thoughts on this? Where do you start with a conversation with a client? I think one of the keys is to sit down with the client, especially a new client, and explain to them that we are the extension of them. Security is everybody's business, not just the business of the people that you've hired. You've got to know the expected audience size. So really, that's one of the keys. You have to know what type of venue is being used and what type of contingencies are already in place, and then what contingencies you might have to go to. The interesting dynamic in having this initial conversation is to let them know. Because if you're an LMG of the world or an Encore of the world, and they need an additional laptop, additional computer, or additional assets, it's easy for them to see when you add those costs in. But when all of a sudden they come to you and they say, we need, and they want Mark or they want Dominic to bring some people and move them over here at this event that just happened. And then when you try to, you associate a cost to that on the back end, they don't necessarily, they want to sometimes challenge those costs. And to give them the whole picture of the security plan and let them know that in this initial conversation, what we're giving you is a good estimate of what you need, but that will be flexible and will change on site. But by knowing the expected audience size, knowing the type of venue, knowing what their requirements are and putting contingencies in place, that starts to set the framework for the mindset of how to move forward. Got it. So, Mark, we're going to do a safety plan for our show that we're doing, and we have 10,000 people coming to our big event center. And what are the key components of a safety plan that a client has to really consider? So, for our help, and I've trained in over 514 facilities, one of the things that I've seen is a plethora of emergency plans. Listen, a real plan goes well beyond just the paperwork. It includes your threat and vulnerability assessments, your emergency action plans, your communication protocols. That's critical, right? And something that's very important is the coordination with your local, state, federal agencies. But I always say that one of the number one things is training is critical. Everyone from senior management to your frontline staff, which I always say is the number one asset in every organization facility. They're the ones that are overlooked, underplayed, undervalued at times. They're the boots on the ground. That is your eyes and ears. Training them is critical, right? So, training is so important. And finally, when the emergency plan comes together, it's a living plan. It's practiced. It's updated. It's reviewed after every single event. Let's not wait for crisis to start reviewing your plan. Look at it. Find the gaps. Punch holes into the emergency plan and find out how to close those gaps. Hence, this is where I came up with my company name, GAP. Closing those gaps is critical in the world that we live in today. And the only way to do that is to run these plans, practice them, and coordinate them with your team, staff, and all those that are part of the event industry. So, Dominic, I think what Mark said was really interesting. One of the things he said was the frontline worker. Aren't a lot of people in the security side brought in, potentially temporary, that are brought in to work a gig? And they need some kind of training, and then the gig is over and that staff is returned to a temporary status. What are your thoughts on that, as well as the elements of a safety plan? Well, I think, as Mark highlighted, and you've just a positive question, training is really important. If you think about how important, I mean, we could broaden this topic to security in front of house. Those roles are interchangeable in a lot of circumstances. Sometimes you have specialist security, sometimes you have front of house, sometimes you have both. But the bottom line is they are essentially interacting with the audience, and they are your public-facing point of contact. They represent what's going on. And so, I don't know, doesn't work for the audience. Like, I don't know what to do in this situation. They are the people that the people are going to go to. Those are going to be the first responders. The average response time of EMS is about six to nine minutes, on average, across the U.S. The average incident, especially an active aggressor incident, is less than five. So, you know, even in medical, you were talking about it in the pre-conversation, right? Like, the people on the ground are the ones responding, and so they need to be trained. You know, training is foundational to all of this. You know, some people need general training. Some training can happen in a couple of minutes. It can be a briefing. Some of it can take, you know, several days or weeks or months. The other thing that I would add in terms of the other elements of a safety plan, and so, you know, Mark already talked about, you know, risk assessment. We also talk about what we call a premortem, which is essentially your risk assessment says, what's wrong, how are we going to mitigate it? That's where a lot of people stop, and Mark was alluding to this in the pre-conversation. The reason we call it a premortem is because you then say, let's pretend it went wrong, and now what do we do? And then you go, let's pretend that response went wrong, now what do we do? Because at some point, I have a friend who does some of this stuff, and he will do a tabletop where he takes people out into the middle of a field without telling them. So, they now haven't got any electricity, and they've got to now manage their resources because they've got laptops trying to run those tabletops. The other final thing I would say is subsidiarity. It's just a fancy term for take decisions at the lowest level possible, raise management to the highest level necessary, and this is speaking to those frontline workers. There's something called the iceberg of ignorance, right? And your frontline workers often know way more about what's actually going on than you do, especially if you're in a control room or somewhere else. And so, you have to make sure that they've been properly trained and they have a clear mandate, a framework in which they can make decisions. If they can make decisions in real time within a particular scope that you've specified, they could stop something before it even gets started. If they have to refer to up the chain every five minutes, things are going to go off the rails pretty quickly because you just can't manage something like that at that scale. And to what Dominic said, Les, if I could add to that, it's about inoculating your teams, your frontline teams, to the conditions that they could potentially see and then giving them a plan of action for each one. I call it mental preparation visualization, reality-based training. Walking them through the motion is critical because what you're doing now is you're programming the hazard library so that they can respond to all these conditions and making them all responsible for assumptive risk analysis, assuming risk. Empowering them to do that is very critical. That's how you build those unstoppable teams. And then now is engaging your teams, which now you're bridging generational gaps with over 47% of the workforce being Generation Z. It creates challenges if you don't have the right leadership in place as well. Timothy, your thoughts. I've heard so much from these guys about what does it take, the elements of the safety plan, and it sounds like communication and training are so essential for your people to ultimately be successful. I think that everything that has been said is just right on point. But to add to that, I think the keys in developing an effective event plan is anticipation. You have to be anticipating on a daily basis. You also have to have daily meetings. There needs to be daily meetings with the show managers and all the key stakeholders in order to talk about what happened today and what's going to happen the next day. You need that. You also need contingency plans in place. But I have a couple key things that I always try to get in order to create this plan. And that is I go through a little poetry, a little poem, which first is what is where and when and who gets in. What is where and when and who gets in is critical to the overall plan. And then what times do you stay and who's going to play? In other words, after you get that, what times are these events and who goes to these events? And then the next one is what events within are different in levels of access to begin. In other words, the next step is if you've got multiple levels of access, we need to know that as well. So what I do is I go through this poetry checklist in order to create and give the effective event safety plan. How does the crowd flow and where will they go? Because that's critical to know as well. And so with those key elements and being flexible, being adaptive, having contingency plans and having daily meetings are critical, regardless of that event flow of the day. Because you've got to keep updated on the constant changes of all the sudden blue badges get in and pink badges don't. Or the next day they canceled an event or, you know, everybody's how it's so important. I'm on a show right now that had nine thousand, ten thousand people. And at the last minute of the opening of the of the exhibit hall, someone from show management gets up and tells everybody, everybody go to the other entrance. We're not using this one. You know, and that's that little piece could be chaos. But in the same vein, if we knew that ahead of time, we could have really helped that that experience. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about the attendee experience. And we want to make sure that security is in a position so that we can help give that that give that experience the best possible safety and security without being overwhelming. So so my next question is to Mark. And, you know, I would say is event safety. Can it be sexy? But let me give you the actual question. OK, can event safety be sexy? I don't know. It's very possible. I want to know this is can the audience see or feel safety like, you know, they attend something. Can safety something that's stealth in the background or is it very visible? And they can see it. And that that either helps the audience feel comfortable knowing they're in a very safe environment. I was in an event two weeks ago where they had magnetometers and they had the bags that went through the X-ray machines. And and it was a company doing their own internal event. And I thought, boy, if I didn't feel safe before I got to the ballroom, I surely feel safer being in the ballroom than I did outside the ballroom because that level of safety. So what are your thoughts on this? So that's a great question. Unless they feel it, your clients, your guests, everyone feels it. Think about this for a minute. It has become now more of an expectation to have that your physical security measures in place and to have that enhanced, multi-layered security presence. Do the customers and those attending the events feel it? They do. They notice bag checks. They notice your uniform staff. They notice if they're checked out or if they're fully vested and fully engaged in securing that that particular event. And that resonates a lot of calm and confidence in your guests when when they see that when staff are trained, it shows. And when they're welcoming. Right. That's important. Safety is just part of the hospitality. So when I helped create a guest service conference and then was overseeing the Academy for Safety and Security, I said there is a direct correlation between the two, because if we can train teams and staff to provide the best customer service guest experience, they mitigate a lot of the security risks. I use it for predictive behavioral profiling. But can those guests see that when they come into an event? Yes. Has it become an expectation? Yes. Dominic, your thoughts? Do you agree with Mark? Of course. Like, you know, the guy's a smart guy. I'm not going to disagree with him. He's saying a lot of important stuff. The bottom line is, you know, it's I say both and. Right. It's I like to say see, hear, do. They need to see things that are safer. They need to hear things that are safer. They need to do things that are safer. And that will make them feel safe. Your main job in an event should be to reduce friction and frustration. Frustration is an enormous safety hazard. You know, if you do what you promise to do when you promise to do it and you're as transparent as you can reasonably be when things go wrong, you are going to get that audience on your side. If you look at crowd management, some aspects of crowd management, you need people that work best when people don't realize they're doing what you want them to do. However, sometimes you need to enlist the audience's help in something. And so, you know, sometimes something that might seem like seem largely performative. Is just as effective, though, there's a reason placebo works right. Sometimes when you do something visible, it makes a difference because you're doing it visibly. So both hand is my answer, though. Sometimes seeing the security makes a difference in how people feel. And sometimes it's in the background and you really don't feel it or know it. But it's a combination there, too. Timothy, your thoughts. Yes, I agree. I agree 100 percent. I think that also they so, yes, they should see it. They should feel it. It should be not overwhelming, but at the same time, it should be present. And also the thing that they should that everybody that's in the area looks at is when something does happen, how security responds to it and what in their presence should demand respect and attention. It should it should also be coming from a position of help, not a position of confrontation. And so when they see that, when they see security, they you've got to make sure that you have the right people in the right place. And if you and if not move them around so that what they see in those key points, in those key moments is something that that gives a better experience. But 100 percent on what everyone is saying about seeing it, feeling it, it should be seamless, but at the same time present. And that's hard depending on what city you go in, because we don't pick the venues. We're here to provide the security at those venues. So depending on where you go can can determine the level of service you can you can you can receive. But definitely, if I could just pick up. Do you mind if I just pick up the both Tim, Timothy and Mark we're talking about. Go ahead, Dominic. You know, we often have this conversation about security is like it's this separate entity. Right. The bottom line is, I think Timothy had said and Mark had said earlier that security is everybody's responsibility on that production team. And so, you know, when we're looking at people who can step in, yes, security may be the people you go to ultimately. But if they've got allies in the production team and in the front of house staff who can actually either bring something to their attention proactively or can actually try and help somebody within the scope of what they're able to do, that's going to have an enormous, you know, a multiplying effect for for security as a whole. So Dominic just said less is 100 percent. Timothy's on point. Here's the thing. Cross pollinating your teams is critical in the world that we live in today. When I go on a train here in Puerto Rico and Spokane and all these other places coming up, it's about cross pollinating those teams between guest services, safety and security. We all own it. It's not just a designated role, although somebody oversees it. And there's the reasons that Dominic and Timothy mentioned as to why we do that. So so, Mark, back at you, back at you. Hold that thought to me. Back at you. When did safety become so important? And what are the rewards of safety like? Like when did this happen overnight or did something really bad happen? And as a result, we became safety became important. Les, that's a great question. It has always mattered. Safety has always mattered. But it became a priority as crowds grew larger and incidents started taking over between terrorism, natural disasters, all the things that we encounter, even crowd crushes. They showed how devastating the gaps in planning can be. So in the last two decades, especially, safety has become just as essential as the stage, the sound or the lighting or everything else. But unfortunately, one of the things that we did is we for the longest time, we were very reactive, not proactive. A lot of that had to do, as Timothy mentioned, cost. Right. There were budgetary constraints, things as such. So compromising the asset, which is people in general, was kind of on the back burner. Not anymore. It's at the forefront. All right. Well, Timothy, the question in your the same question to you, when did event safety become so important? Like, did this just happen overnight? Like the rewards of you walking out of a show with 10,000 people and no one getting hurt and and your safety planning all working. When did that, like, become a really important thing? Was it always that way or has that become important recently? Especially when you look at the news, when you watch something that happens and someone gets shot in an event. I mean, this is the stuff that brings safety to the forefront. But what is your opinion on this? I think that security, event security has always been important. It's always been in the background and it's always important. But when did we when did when did it become important for us collectively as an event world? I think from from my time of being. Being in it in about 2000 of the year 2000 and onward terrorist threats and the Las Vegas shooting of 2017 and then COVID. I think the combination of all those things really put it into the forefront of of of the attention and it became less of a necessary evil and more of a we've got to do something about this. The boards of different associations wanted got more involved than they've ever been as well to where it pushes the event managers and event operations of these associations and groups to to at least give them like right now I'm working on a proposal for an entire evolve system lockdown or control of a convention center and that's becoming more and more evident. I know that there are convention centers in the country now that require evolve in all their access points where there's Boston and I know there's that's doing that others are looking at it. But I think that around the year 2000 is really when there was a turning point in the in the movement of of of event security really being something that they they started to be willing to pay for and look at. Dominic your thoughts. Well so obviously I'm not from around here right originally so in the UK the safety conversation really kicked into high gear around the early 1990s because we got really good at killing people at events and the government decided to step in and said you know maybe don't do that it's a bad idea. You know in the US I've always said like you know you the US we like to go big or go home so you know per Mark's point it's been going on for a long time and Timothy's point you know I mean people forget the who disaster in Cincinnati in 1979 right. I mean Cincinnati for two and a half maybe three decades refused to it made it illegal to have general admission to their events precisely because of the 11 people who died in a crowd crush there you know for a lot of time there was individuals and groups trying to do stuff every time something would come into the news people would react and they would think they would have to do something and I want to point out some of the organizations that have been doing this for a while like you've got the IAVM the venue managers association you've got the USITC, ESA, ESAC, ESTA, ANSI, NFPA they've all been involved in doing stuff along with individual companies all trying to do something but to back up what Timothy was saying you know for me it was a it was a kind of a build of pressure from the early 2000s and a seminal moment was the Station Nightclub fire in 2003 and then you add to that the Indiana State Fair collapse in 2011 and basically local and state governments started waking up and going you know what if you don't do something about this we're going to regulate and you know this industry was smart enough to say hey maybe we're the best people to regulate you know to mitigate this not have regulation telling us what to do and the truth is that regulation has come in you know there was the 1776 law in California for training for for people who work on events you've got regulation in Nevada you've got regulation in New York and so you're seeing this build but it's really been because a bunch of lone voices who've always known this have been trying to make it happen for a while and they're going hey over here can we please make it a little bit safer and then it's kind of built into a critical mass. So this is my final question I'm starting with you Mark. Mark what advice would you share with anyone planning an event about safety and and taking it in a serious way for what it is as I've learned today it's an investment it's some people shouldn't look at it as a cost they need to look at as an investment in the success of their event but what would you share with them or your advice and starting an approach towards safety on any event size and scope and venue obviously as separate you know would be determined what were your thoughts my advice is simple lessons don't do it alone that's that's important right uniform incident command systems were very critical in what happened in Astroworld and there was lack of communication between roles and processes critical so never do this alone identify the event time the event type the geographical location and plan accordingly remember that I always say that safety is is not an individual sport it's a team sport so you want to start early involving the right partners training your people safety and hospitality they go hand in hand as as Timothy Dominic and I have mentioned the goal isn't to create fear it's to create confidence in those that are attending the event and for everyone looking for resources tap into them right there's outstanding organizations out there my own work with GAP where I trained gate 15 has been such a valuable resource as I chaired the the council through DHS and CISA public assembly facility subsector council and gate 15 under Andy Jabbar for intelligence sharing there's there's a valuable resource when we talk about in in orbit under Akma Ali who came from the safety act office for compliance and emergency planning and then allied universal is another example of a large-scale operational support system and team that can come in and help your events tap into those resources because together these groups all represent some of the best thinking and the best practices in our industry so if you're not if you're not information sharing and networking and bringing in and vetting those good resources to be a part of your event planning process then you're behind the eight ball Dominic your thoughts uh you know what would you share with an event a planner or a person putting an event on uh as as far as the best advice you can give them uh toward tackling event safety so I think you know if I had to choose one phrase it would be start early right start early get people involved early if we're talking about an investment here like I've persuaded clients in the past where we've done the first walk through of the venue this is the venue the walk through that they do before they even think they're going to have a show before they even know what the show is and I've had the safety team there the security team there the production team there or you know just their heads and the design team there now everybody thinks of that as a cost no that is absolutely an investment because these people are experts and they can save you so much money by solving if you tell them your intent of what you want to achieve you may you know by the time you turn up on site with your plan and turn it over to the security team or the production team or whoever it's it's a fait accompli it's a bunch of stuff they now have to mitigate or fix how about eliminating a whole bunch of stuff before it ever showed up and the amount of money that would save you would be amazing Timothy your thoughts on on uh you know uh sharing we're about to do an event yes both Dominic and Mark are right on point it's so and you know the thing is when when when when they don't communicate and they start drowning then they don't ask how much it's going to cost and we could have saved money uh when you know if we just would have been engaged early I've got four I've got five steps that I try to do in early planning over and over the first is engage early second is you've got to be inclusive include your security providers regardless of who it is early on don't wait until the last moment and then all of a sudden they didn't come to the site visit they didn't come to the the pre-planning meetings they're not involved in your daily staff meetings yet the show happens and you expect them to deliver you got to engage your security company or your security management early so and they don't do that a lot they got to engage early they got to be inclusive and consider them a part of the team I go to so many site visits and the security's not there and I go why is security not here you know you've got to be inclusive you've got to give the that's number two is be inclusive number three is give give info and space as soon as you can so that they can start determining how many guards they need where they need them they pick this beautiful they pick this beautiful ballroom that has these chandeliers because of the chandelier and it's got a million access points and then they wonder will they expect us to have two guards you can't do that you got to engage early you've got to be inclusive give us the influence base and then you've got to communicate updates because then that's the other key all of a sudden we we get on show site we think that there's three guards needed oh we forgot to tell you this other group just added another entire ballroom and then they expect you to deliver so we spent up as managers monitoring posts that we should have security officers so now we don't have a manager and the last one is go back to the top and do those over again I I guys I have to tell you I learned a whole other level today about safety and uh i am so you know can safety be sexy and exciting I think it is I learned today about it's an investment I learned today it takes a lot of planning to be smart I learned everyone needs to go home in one piece and that's that's a victory for the safety hey Les I want to add something that Timothy Timothy nailed that down right that was really good like he could be the spokesperson for all of us right now he did good so he said some key things that are very important that I just want to share i'm getting ready to go train Puerto Rico and in in lieu of all the Bad Bunny concerts and then and then Boston and here's the thing when we do these trainings some of the things that timothy talked about is what we do it's about including everyone your third-party security companies your event planners your organizers your service contractors so what they do is they'll bring them all under one roof hotel lodging they bring them all under one roof and we push out the training here's why the thing is is when an event takes place if you have crisis economic impact is it just going to affect the facility the venue or the organization it's going to affect everyone and not just in that geographical area I would hate to be the organization of the facility of whatever venue type that is subjected to crisis and has a ripple effect on all the other venues of the same size same type similar types of events so Timothy was right on point Timothy was right that's one of my hashtags I've got for the day guys I want to thank Mark, Dominic, and Timothy you all are amazing I think the world is a more secure place because you all are in it I look forward to seeing you in a ballroom a convention center any environment and where I will feel safe guys this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead everybody great job and thank you for joining today