THE DIFFERENCES WORKING WITH AN IN-HOUSE A/V TEAM VERSES AN OUTSIDE A/V PROVIDER

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have two amazing guests. I have Nick Farrell. He's the vice president of executive producer for TEK Productions. And I have Megan Cummings with Linder Global. She's the senior vice president of events. Everyone, welcome to the show. Hello, great to be here. Thank you very much. Well, today's show is dedicated to talking about the in-house experience versus bringing your own teams in. And all of us that work in venues around the planet, there are in-house teams in many of those venues. And today, we're going to kind of explore your thoughts and ideas on how that goes and how they treat you and what the experience is like. So I'm going to start with you, Megan. Megan, would you describe what you expect out of the typical in-house experience, what you've experienced? And for this podcast, we're not using any names for any companies. We're just talking about in very general terms, because I'm sure there's good and bad experiences wherever you go. So maybe, Megan, just tell us what would you expect and how does it work with the in-house teams? Yeah, absolutely. We are lucky to work across a lot of different venues that have an in-house team that is there to really help make sure that the event is a super success, but that also the venue is being protected and used in the best way. And when we go into a venue, our goal is to find the experts for that venue. So we, in working with an in-house provider, really rely on them to be knowledgeable about both the space, how to use it, how it's been showcased, ideas of what might look terrific, where is the sound going to be the best, and then where are those pitfalls, right? This is their venue. They should know troubling areas, areas of production where if we have some great big, huge idea, it might look great, but it might not sound great or vice versa. So for us, it's the knowledge and understanding of how to utilize their equipment, their labor, and their venue in the right way. Got it. Okay, super. Nick, could you maybe share your experience working with in-house teams and good and bad? I mean, my experiences are overall positive working with in-house teams. The nice part about it is that we're both engaged in a partnership to support the end client, right? So they're in it to please that client to make sure that they're coming back again for more events in the future. And we're in sort of the same mindset to make sure that they have the best experience possible. And the only way to make that happen is real partnership among the teams that are brought together to make that happen. So overall, I mean, positive results over the years with a wide variety of internal teams to different properties, venues, hotels, convention centers, etc. I find that for the most part, everybody gets it and is looking to do the best they can do, given what they're given. Okay, well, I would think that everyone should have good intentions. And we have just for the record, we have a few in-house properties as well, convention centers that were in-house for many, many years. So maybe Megan, you could talk to me about how it works, why you bring outside companies in and what may be some of the differences of the experience with an outside company versus an in-house company. And I can only say that we've worked together on many shows, your company Linder Global. But not always at the venues that were in-house. So why do you bring an outside company in versus an internal in-house team? And maybe what are the fundamental differences? Yeah, it's a great question. And as you mentioned, right, we've worked together on a number of projects and events before, and we've built some trust and we have history together. And I think that's where you feel comfortable with an organization that you have had all those experiences with. So it's easy. It's like you create your own language. It's like, ooh, remember what we did in this year, here? And they say, yes, let's do that again in this space. So there's just a relationship that's already been built. And so you're excited to continue that partnership and continue to bring them to other venues. So I think the goal of bringing an outside vendor in is just to kind of continue that base that you already have. But we often work while we bring an outside vendor in. They are working closely a lot of times with either labor that's provided from in-house or equipment that they can utilize. So the hope is that there are some efficiencies gained also when you're bringing an outside vendor into a venue that you can use. How can you leverage some of that expertise that's already there and add on to that to provide greater value for the client? Every client deserves great value. I'm not sure you can always get it with the in-house team. But Nick, what are your thoughts on the experiences of why you brought outside companies in versus just working with the in-house? Usually for us, it's a legacy relationships like the ones that we have with you as a great provider and providing support for us around the country and beyond. What also comes with that is a legacy of understanding of how we do things and how we want things to be done and where we set the bar. You know what I mean? So it's a matter of there's a lot of learnings over time that just come automatically now when we partner together for an event that we're not sort of reinventing the wheel each time. Every new venue is going to have a different team or different representatives or different types of equipment, things like that. We're fortunate in these partnerships with outside suppliers to just really create great relationships, great depth of knowledge of understanding of how each other works, which again brings that helps to bring efficiencies for the client and consistency to the client overall as we travel around doing similar shows for the same client. I kind of get the idea that after you've worked with someone long enough, it's kind of like some version of a marriage. You kind of get to understand the way they like it, the way that their expectations and it becomes easy and predictable and you can have reasonable expectations that they're going to perform versus going to this property or this property and you might not know what you're going to get and they might not know how you want it done. And you might get a variety of from completely non-skilled or really not competent to very confident. And so you have at least a higher degree of predictability so you can have the best outcome for your clients. I think that probably kind of sums it up. Well said. Absolutely. Okay, so now let me ask the 300-pound gorilla question or the 800-pound gorilla question is, so when working with in-house versus an out-of-house company, how does price become a factor? Because I don't know that I've heard a lot of people tell me they're able to get good deals or the proper negotiations with in-house. And Megan, why don't you start by sharing your experience? Because sometimes I've heard almost the opposite, but maybe what is your experience? Yeah, it is harder to negotiate oftentimes when you're working with the in-house provider, right? You don't have as much leverage and you are stuck within a lot of times equipment that they already have, the labor prices that they have. And so oftentimes the budget is much higher. So for me, if I'm working with a provider, not a visual provider across a number of different events in a year, I've got more buying power, right? There's negotiation that I can do and some flexibility with pricing that that provider is able to bring to the table. And you lose that when you go to somewhere where you don't have that legacy relationship, you're not in there all the time, and you really can be stuck with the prices they provide, and they don't really have to work with you on your budget. I will say we've been lucky enough where oftentimes they will offer what they can, but in the long run, it is more expensive to work with in-house. And maybe that's because of whatever their commission structure is to the venue. And sometimes that adds a component of cost. And we all have, as every AV provider has a certain amount of cost and labor and equipment and running their machine. So Nick, what is your thoughts on the question? Yeah, about pricing. I think it's interesting. I think there are occasions where a client may have been either solicited a bid from that in-house, which we encourage, we always say, go out and get a competitive bid, absolutely, and compare it to ours. What we often run into is that, well, hey, we're getting a great look at what they're able to do price wise here, and which at the surface looks like a great price for the run of the event. What we ultimately find out is that it really is not an apples to apples comparison as it relates to the level of equipment, the dedicated labor that would be associated coming from us, and just many aspects of the overall production management that they typically won't price in, nor are they, I don't believe, particularly set up for in most cases to provide that full level of support that a client may be used to. So I think having that RFP written in such a way that it is, I need, you know, this type of projector, this many lumens, this size screen, dedicated labor, you know what I mean? If you want to do a comparison, that's great, but make sure you're actually getting the comparison before you look to cost out your outside supplier versus your in-house provider. That's so hard, Nick, actually, just because of that comment, as someone who's creating those RFPs, it is difficult always for me to know what the lumens should be, what the, you know, the specifics to ask, which is why relationships become so important, and those, you know, audiovisual providers that we are using consistently, there's a trust that, of course, they're going to have a backup projector, of course, they're going to have, you know, top-notch labor, and I think you're right when you go into working with a vendor, you don't know, yeah, you get that great price, and you're like, yes, this will be wonderful. And you learn the hard way that they're missing, you know, great equipment, the number of staff that you would expect, no, you can't have one person managing three breakout rooms at any given time. So it's, that is where I think audiovisual companies can help, just like you said, in evaluating those RFPs to make sure that everything that you really need to be successful has been included. So this is my question to, this will go to Nick first. Nick, is there a higher degree of risk working with an in-house company versus an out-of-house company, because the out-of-house company that you're bringing in obviously has some experience with you, they, you know, they know expectations like you described, and in the in-house company, it's almost like you'll have to see the level of support that comes out. And also, sometimes people in these venues that maybe I'll call them the AV techs, might not be able to do the higher skill level positions. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, inherently, there's a risk. I mean, if you're, you know, if you're, if you're driving on some road through the middle of the country, and your car breaks down, and there's a, you know, two garages show up on your on your Google Maps, and one is the dealership for who made your car, and then the other one is just a garage that happens to be open that day. You're taking a risk by going into that garage versus going to a skilled known entity supplier that's going to know your car inside and out conceivably. So that's just advice on driving across country if anybody needed that. But the real point there being with your coming with your, your outside company, I think it's it's a matter of, again, back to the trust and the overall response that you're going to be getting. From them, as it relates to them, knowing your system, knowing how you want things done. And a lot of in a lot of occasions, knowing how that end client want things done. My outside suppliers are very familiar with criteria that that my client has for how things need to be done. And we're, you know, we're, we're in lockstep on that way. If you come in to a new venue new with a with a provider, an in house provider that's there to supply services, they'll, they'll do their best to give you what they need. What they have, but they don't come with that years of knowledge or background, to make sure it's right. Yeah, Megan, your thoughts on this. Yeah, I, I think that the risk for us when we go in and we find a lot of times that the AV techs that are assigned to your project, say, it's multi day, you get, you know, on day one, that of tech that you're working with, and then day two, you can get a totally different set. So all of the communication, the work that you've done, the setup, any rehearsals, that knowledge is lost from from day to day. And that can sometimes happen also from during your planning, a lot of that information doesn't get translated to the team that's going to be executing on site. And, and, and that can be tough on site to deal with. It's also the team that can be on site in house gets a little stuck sometimes in this is the way we always do it. So you lose that adaptability when, you know, a speaker goes rogue, or something happens, or you're doing a setup that's very different for this group. And they're like, Whoa, you guys are really pushing the envelope. And it's harder for that in house kind of tech team to really break out of the mold of what they're used to doing. And so depending on, you know, who's showing up that day for their shift, you either get a group that's really adaptable, and is creative, or you could get someone who's, you know, relatively maybe new, or they just are have been there forever and are, you know, unwilling to kind of go outside the box with you there. So, so let me let, let me throw this idea out and you tell me if this is a stereotype that is right or wrong. So, some people say that the in-house are overpriced for whatever they deliver, it doesn't matter where, and, and they don't always deliver to the highest expectations. Would you agree or disagree with that statement? Nick? Um, you know, I'm sure there are instances where that's not the case, right? I mean, I've met a lot of great teams that are that are doing great work out there. You know what I mean? So it's hard to make a blanket statement like that. Sure. Sure. There's my, there's my politically correct answer. So, so, but if you were 51, if you were 51%, are you having a 51% better experience that the in-houses are not overpriced, and they're doing good jobs? Or would 51% be the opposite, that they're overpriced and not doing a great job? Which which way is it? You can't be, you can't, you can't be on the line, you have to pick a side. I would say your initial statement, I'm familiar with, I've heard it, and I've probably said it myself on occasion. So we have run into that. We have run into that. I just, I just am careful to say that I've met such great teams out there that I wouldn't throw everybody in the same bucket. I completely agree with you. I, Megan, what are your thoughts on that? Do you find, do you, is that statement wrong or correct or incorrect? What do you think? I mean, it's definitely based in truth, which is why it's kind of a catchy statement. And I have absolutely, in the events that we produce, been burned by in-house AV companies before, I think we all have. But I would agree with Nick that you can go into a venue and be so happily surprised at the team that you have there, that is just tremendous and committed to great work, that it makes you feel confident in the next go-round, that the next in-house AV team, you're like, yes, I'm sure this will be amazing also, but I think for the most part that 51%, you know, it does seem to be less of a successful experience than it would be working with an outside. So, so if, you know, how, how do your clients, and this is a follow-up question to you, Megan, how do your clients get impacted if, if maybe you get a contract where it says they have to use the in-house and you're kind of stuck with that and you don't have any external options, how, how, how's that experience go? Yeah, that could be tough. Certainly number one for, for budget. So just from the outset, making sure we're communicating, you know, that we have less power to negotiate, but also number two, the amount of time and effort that we will take on behalf of our client to really work with the in-house team, to make sure that we go to the, you know, extra walkthroughs, meetings, making sure we're meeting those techs that will be on site with us to, to really spend some time to invest there so that there are no surprise or minimizing the number of surprises we have on site. But it can be hard for a client sometimes to not have the vendors that they know also and that they've worked with often. And, and, you know, they're a two that they're used to having them mic themselves up for them. Also, it can, it can be a challenge and it's, you know, sometimes the reason to not use a venue if they feel that strongly. So something that we need to be aware of from the outset. Nick, your thoughts? The question is about the, having a client have signed a contract and you don't have options. You're still, you're stuck in this mode and, and maybe you're not pleased with what you have. And you're in this no win situation because you're trying to deliver for your client and you're not getting the level of support that you normally get. Yeah, I would start with the contract. You know, any good lawyer will tell you they've never met a contract that they can't modify. So, Nick, you've got a lot of good lines today. I'm getting my car fixed in the middle of a garage and now I got to get a lawyer. Well, but there's a lot of truth to that. These are negotiable terms and we let our clients know that so that when they go into the negotiation phase with the parent property, that they can have things like that crossed out or modified to allow for their preferred vendor to support them in that event. So not everything is ironclad in these arrangements. So that would be one thing to keep in mind. And then, yeah, I think, you know, and then there are other aspects that is going to fall on your in-house team rigging and electrical in most venues. And there's, there's a lot of, you know, safety and building structural engineering components to that, that works. Some of that makes sense. You know, so you are contractually obligated to use them for that. And in those situations, you partner with them and Megan's point about them giving you intel on what's going on in the ceiling above your stage and things like that. They come with all that knowledge. So it makes them a valuable asset in that sense. So this question is to Megan. Megan, you know, if you're doing a high-end show where it's, we'll call it, there's a higher level of production, not just a basic AV show. Do you feel that the typical in-house provider can really meet or exceed your expectations? Or is that really more well-suited because it's any higher end production to bring an outside sort of resource in to make sure you execute, especially when these are larger budget shows? Yeah, I think a hundred percent, the in-house has some limitations with the equipment they have access to with the technicians that they're able to bring in. And yeah, you know, the basic packages for, you know, audio visual, that might make sense for in-house. But once you start talking higher end production and really creative, you know, cutting edge technology, they just don't have the resources to pull that off. And that absolutely we would not rely on the in-house tech team for at all. Nick, your thoughts? Yeah, agreed. It's that level of customization and flexibility around your design that an outside provider is able to bring with the extensive knowledge around those packages to help you design the right show and especially at the higher end. Well, you know, as we go to some venues, depending upon what geographic location, there's a lot of rules when you sign contracts or clients have them and some venues don't let other people in. Others let them in with certain limitations. Some venues are completely open. It just depends where you're going. I would suggest that you all, between the two companies, TEK and Linder, you're going to be doing hundreds of events in the next 12 months, and you're going to have experiences in both dealing with in-house and working with companies like us, out of house, and we're in-house in some venues. And I guess there's some unique challenges. If there was some advice that you could give, Megan, to anyone who is going to do a show, and I'm going to preface this, this show has mission critical, cannot fail, most important people in the world. It seems like I only do shows with the most important people in the world in it because there are no unimportant people. What advice would you give to someone when they were planning this event as to whether to go down the out of house, bring someone in, or the in-house, what approaches or what questions would you ask for them to kind of noodle on to make sure they get the outcome they need? Yeah, I think number one is ask as many questions as you can of the in-house. Ask for examples. Ask to show up at an event. If you're really considering using an in-house provider for such an event that has all those mission critical moments, you really want to be super confident that they are the team that can pull that off. And I think the great point that Nick brought up, when creating an RFP, be as detailed as you can about your expectations, about the type of equipment or the type of experience you are hoping for, not just the audience to have, but all of the speakers, the stage participants, everyone that's going to come in contact with that audiovisual team. It's to really lay out the vision and to confirm with either an outside vendor or inside who can really pull this off in the best way with the budget that you have, the time constraints you have, and the venue specs that you have. So you have to be knowledgeable and really push to get the right answers. So Nick, sophisticated production has to go right. One of your best clients, do you work through the in-house or you bring an outside company like ours? How do you approach that? I go with what I can trust and what my gut tells me. And the people that I go into these types of projects with and I have a track record with are the ones that I'm going to fight to bring with me on each of my programs. So we're fortunate to have fantastic relationships with, you know, from the event labor and technician side, just, you know, some of the best in the business. I wouldn't imagine going on show site without them, you know, and using an onsite support in that situation. Well, you know, as the year progresses and we're done with all these, hopefully these COVID things, we get to go out and do what we love to do and make pretty shows and make our clients happy. And I think both of you added some real interesting thoughts today on the pluses and the minuses on working on different paths. And I want to appreciate Megan and Nick for joining us today. And my theory is if it's highly sophisticated, you're probably bringing someone. If it's basic AV, you might be using the in-house. That's the general rule. And I'm sure there are exceptions. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody, great job. Thank you so much for joining. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Les. Thanks, Nick. Thanks, Megan.