ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF CREATING AMAZING LIGHTING DESIGNS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have four amazing guests. I have John Featherstone. He is the principal and managing director for Lightswitch Chicago. I have Greg Cohen. He is UBLD founding partner. I have Richard Dunn, president of Dunn Lights Incorporated. And I have Kyle Kegan. He is the owner and principal designer for Voyage Productions. Guys, welcome to the show. Thank you, Les. Thank you, Les. Thank you, Les. Guys, today our show is dedicated to the lighting business and creating amazing lighting designs. And with this group, I could go on for days about all the amazing lighting designs you all have done. And today, I want to talk about it for our audience. And my first question is, I'm throwing it to John Featherstone. And John, why is lighting an essential element of every show today? Like, we can't live without the really good lighting thing going. Well, we all four of us like to think you can't live without the really good lighting thing going, but we're biased. I think because light is such an emotive storytelling device. And I think what all four of us do is ultimately always in service of story. And if we don't understand the story, then we fundamentally can't do our jobs. But I think light is such a powerful language agnostic, emotional way to tell a story, whether it's for a corporate client or for a concert performer. And lighting helps us reach from the stage to the furthest seat in the venue, no matter how big it is, and connect with everybody and make them feel like they're engaged. I love an audience when they're engaged. Mr. Keegan, could you add to what John said about why is lighting an essential element? Because I don't know of any shows we're doing without some form of lighting on site. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, by manipulating everything from color, intensity and direction, of course, you can shift the audience's perception of time and space. And for instance, like a warm lighting can evoke, you know, nostalgia and white, while cool tones can create the tension, of course, and the transitions in lighting can signal change and scene or mood and effectively guiding the audience through this narrative that we that we, you know, are in that storytelling device. So lighting is a crucial element to this, to every show that we do and every project we work on. Greg Cohen, what are your thoughts on lighting and why it is so important for every show? Well, I think the choices we make on lighting are basically finding places where there aren't light, isn't light and adding light to it. We sort of tell the story in the simplest sense of telling the audience where to look. That's our first responsibility. And keeping whatever we're supposed to see first and foremost in the picture for the camera or the live audience, that's a responsibility that doesn't change on any show. Anything on top of that, I think, is where the four of us get excited, like as we find a way to express, to excite a piece of scenery, to highlight a piece of architecture, to take an aerial, a wide aerial shot and find a way to express beams through it is a way that we can take something, you know, certainly there are many of us here on this team who do a fair amount of corporate work where we were doing something that is almost undeniably boring. And trying to make it as exciting as we can through expressing color, direction, texture. And that's why we're critical, because without us, we would just be six people on Zoom. Oh, wait, bad example. But you see what I'm saying. You can have good lighting on Zoom. I'm sure of it. I haven't seen much of it, but I'm sure it's possible. It has to exist. It's like the mythical unicorn, right? The good Zoom lighting. Yes, for sure. Even though Kyle's is pretty good, I gotta tell you. I know this is an audio podcast, but Kyle's looking pretty good there. Yeah, he's got that warmth. Isn't it critical when you see each other, even though this is audio only? Mr. Dunn, can you opine on the essential elements of light? Well, I think John touched on it for a moment. The bottom line is messaging. Whether you're looking at an entertainment event where the producers and the creators have something they want you to feel, or if you're doing corporate where there is a little more direct messaging, a little more obvious messaging. And with the entertainment side of things, there might be a preconceived notion to what it's going to look like. And do you want to play into that and actually give them what they're expecting? You have the opportunity to enhance the messaging and to direct the messaging. And just kind of a final thought on that. I always think of my dad. He's an elderly gentleman. When he goes to an event, he leaves. He doesn't have the knowledge that even a lot of concert goers have. He leaves with an aggregate feeling of what he just saw. And he doesn't necessarily think that the lighting was exactly bang on, but it affects his... I give this a 9 out of 10. And that involves the lighting, the audio, the temperature. Was it too loud? Were there lights in his eyes? And many, many times I think of my dad on how we're producing this aggregate presentation to the audience and making sure that we don't do anything to, A, take away from the message, but everything we do, be it an emotional drive for an entertainment piece or a business message, that everything we're doing is enhancing the presentation and enhancing the message for viewers that may be very articulate and in tune to what we're doing or those that have no idea what to expect. I definitely think the audience does not have, you know, unless they've seen the show before, they don't really have an expectation. But that takes me to my next question. Back to John. John, you know, how do you use lighting to take the audience on a journey? And I want to know what your thoughts are on that. Yeah, it's a great question, Les. I think, again, same kind of answer. It's about weaving a story. And I think when lighting is at its best is when it's one of a number of elements of storytelling. And the projects that I enjoy are when I'm working with a collaborative team, where we kind of tell, take the arc of the project apart, whether it's a corporate event or a theme park ride or a concert or whatever. And everybody's voice ebbs and flows. You know, it would be less interesting if you went to see a symphony orchestra and it was only violins. It would be somewhat less exciting if you went to see a band and it was only guitars. It's those different voices that weave together that make something cohesive, coherent, and that takes you on a journey. So I think for me, lighting at its best is when we find the points in a project where we can really step to the front and say, look, we got this. There's an element here. There's a beat in this show. There's a message. There's a cue in this song that we're really going to take on and have lighting lean into that. But also, importantly, points when, as creative people, we're responsible enough to step back and say, actually, this is better if I turn some things off. This is better if I peel it away a little bit. This is a better spot where we could let laser step to the front or video step to the front or simply human performance step to the front and get out of the way. And to me, that's a mark of a good lighting designer. And I've got three other good lighting designers on this Zoom with me. And I think all of us have worked in projects where sometimes what we don't do is more important than the things that we do and being wise enough to understand where you fit in that hierarchy of the show. Wow, that was very articulate. I love that answer. It's that good British education for you, Les. Good call, everybody. We can stop it there. Good job, John. Yeah, I think our days are done. So I'm throwing the same question to Greg. And if you do more corporates or more entertainment, how do you take that light and start the journey? You're in a ballroom, you're in a convention center, you're somewhere. And how does that help the story, augment the story in some respect? I mean, I think John's point of about collaboration was, is a good one that we're all sort of desperate to find it. We all have ideas. Lighting designers, you know, the difference between God and a lighting designer is God doesn't think he's a lighting designer, right? We all think we're the expert on everything, but we find ways to, we find the moments in a show where we can work together with the other members of the team, whether it's underscoring a video or finding a, I think there's nothing more frustrating when you're set. You know, when, when a creative director says, I think this would, this is a very important moment in the show. We should definitely have some sort of lighting here. And you're like, like a lighting alone, like a ballet or, you know, a strobe hit or something in the absence of the collaboration without video or audio or something in staging that, that motivates that moment, as we would say in the script. It feels inevitably like more of a mistake than our day rate should suggest we're making, right? We should know what we're doing and how to fit into the process of what other people have going on. And I feel like those moments where all departments work together, where you have an opening video that's tightly queued or a band that's fitting into the message of what you're working on. And you feel like you're part of a team and you're not just making cool looks on your YouTube channel with your on PC rig or something. Those are the moments where you realize that, that it's the people that make it work. And it's the, it's the coming together and the other people who have an idea that is maybe a little bit better for you than yours at that moment, or a little bit more appropriate than you're like, this is it. This is how I'm contributing. And that, that's a great feeling. You're absolutely right about those other voices, Greg. It really resonates with me. I try to have this notion that there's no such thing as a bad source for a good idea. You know, I don't care if it's somebody who's the fourth person on a three person crew being open to those other voices important. You're absolutely right. You know, you guys have articulated such a good answer on this. I'm just going to move on to the next question because I have a good one. And I don't want to run out of time today. So Kyle, I'm throwing this question to you. Where do you start in the design process for a show? So, so like it's, it's, it's day one. I've been told I got to start working on a show. Like, what's your process and how do you do it? Well, I'm glad you got that one, Kyle, because I wouldn't know where to start with that. Yeah, I was going to say, there's many ways, many places to start there. Every project is obviously equally different. You know, sometimes we're defining a project in the immediate, working really fast. And it's the two questions are, you know, what's your budget? What's the size of the venue? Start right there. But, you know, when we can take a step back, which we always obviously would love, and, you know, we can work on something for months. And, you know, those are the ones that we were going to really sink our teeth in. The process usually, you know, begins with a deep understanding of the project at hand, of course. You know, and that starts just like we talked about the collaboration, right? And understanding from the producer, whether it's the artist we're working with, or a producer on a, on a show or a corporate event of, you know, working with the brand directly, you know, all that establishes the vital vision of what this project is going to entail. And then it's the collaboration from there down, who's involved? Is there a creative director? Are we stepping into blurring some of those lines? Is there, you know, because every project, like I said, is totally different. And that's in that sense. But, you know, that collaborative effort will obviously go back to either just a theme or a concept, or to an actual script, if we're working on something, you know, in the theatre. And we're typically supporting that vision through this whole process, of course. And through, you know, how do we fit ourselves as a cog in the wheel to make this project actually special? And, you know, so then from there, it's the research and, and references and developing a concept that obviously aligns with this, this goal. And this vision, I think, is a vital step, and passing information back and forth, whether it's, you know, just as simple napkin drawings, or full blown render, you know, 3D renders that we can share, obviously, we use that as a crucial part of our, our process. And then from there, we share the ideas with with the whole team and whittle it down to, you know, what, how do we build this into a reality, right? Because there's always, you know, if you're not, if you're not defined by a budget right away, or you're not defined by, you know, what the size of the venue is, you obviously are going to shoot for the moon. And when you do, you got to really bring it into what's reality, of course, which then gets you to that budget and size of the venue I always fall back on. And, and, or, you know, what's it going to, is it going to be a tour? Is it a one off corporate event? There's all sorts of, you know, things that play a role there. And then, yeah, you know, I think it's just the, when I say that the process goes from the, you know, concept phase to reality phase, the three dimension that the 3D tools we have at disposal now is really powerful. And we use that. I feel like now, especially here in Denver, our studio is, is, you know, full blown previous suite, and we use it religiously, because we can really get our ideas down to what reality is before we even see it on on a stage or in a venue. And that's a huge, huge step for everybody. And then when we get to that final process, it's usually whether we have rehearsals, or we're going into a one off, like we sometimes have to, you know, we can hopefully save time and money on the back end of how the how to get the show off the ground. But yeah, hope that happens. Got it. That sounds like a real process. Richard, your thoughts on his process, and how much of the mechanics, like the the space you're in the load in time, the you know, some of the mechanics of where you're working, if you're in a far away place, or there are resources, maybe tell me your process. Well, to add to Kyle's two questions about budget and size of room, is what's the message? What's what's the purpose? What? Why are we gathered? And what are we trying to convey? And I really struggle, I really struggle with asking the client and in finding a definitive budget. I don't want that that to limit creativity. I'm sure much like the other guys on the call, my lighting career began with a stage wash and drape up light and, and many, many times with no budget, or you're doing low budget, vocal theater, and you're making some incredible, incredible, emotion and memories with literally nothing. And so I do a lot in the corporate world. And I really, I really fight the urge to, to start with where's our budget on this? Because at the end of the day, what is the message? And how can I, how can I support your message from the lighting design? And then once we're there, there were two things, my time at Disney was a totally different approach. We would get together and let's blue sky an idea, then let's find the money for it. In the corporate world, the people that don't understand what we do, start you with a price tag and say, you have to fit it in this box. And so I try to draw on that. Well, let's hit the blue sky first and see what we can do to make this fit. And it's, it was refreshing back in the day. And obviously we always had to back into a budget. You had to be there. But I really try to shake off the restraints of that. Let's think outside the box to make sure that this message is an absolute home run, regardless what budget they send my way. Greg Cohen, your thoughts on where you start in the design process. What is your, where do you begin? You know, it's funny. I do cling to the budget a little early. I do feel so much of what I find that I'm doing is trying to get an assessment from the client, a client of where they want to be money-wise and how much I can beat the vendor, sorry, less into that number, right? Like the truth is finally coming out and clean today. Right. It was only a matter of time because I, oh dude, it's been well articulated, but, but I do, because I do feel like you, I do need a sense. And sometimes, and I think we've all been through this. So, I mean, to answer your question directly, I start with the set because the set is, is, or, or the set is like in corporate, what the script may be in legit, right? The set is what your, your canvas are that you're going to paint. Like, what are you going to look at? Are there renderings? Is there, and then, you know, what is a creative director brought to that and stuff? But beyond that, I find when I can talk about money in a way that normalizes it to get, to say like, what do you have, especially when people say you're over budget and you say, well, what do you want it to be? And they're like, we want it to be less. And I'm like, it's like when people say show up at the airport earlier, it's like, you can't just be less. You can't just be earlier. At some point you're at the airport at the right time. At some point, the budget is the budget and you can get to that number and figure out. And if they say the budget is $4, right, then you can say, well, it's going to be a little bit of challenge for you to actually see the people on stage. Right. But if you, if you find a way to kind of get them talking about money, so you can right-size the design, it probably does ultimately create, I probably missed some opportunities to sort of have as many fixtures or, you know, as I like, but I think we all sort of know as designers what we want. And if you can sort of, if they say a number and it's close to what you think you can get to, then that's a great feeling. Then you can say, and they have more, you know, or it is painful when they have no money and yet they want the audience lit and they need, you know, all this stuff. And there's like, you know, and they want S60s for makeup and stuff. You're like, guys, you know, you've got to give me something here, you know? And it's, yeah, it's, I don't know. Interesting response. John, would you tell us your contrarian view of all these guys of the budget is to, everyone brings up money. What is your design process? Well, obviously we all live in the real world, you know what I mean? And what I try to do is a philosophy that's called pragmatic design, which is trying to keep all these factors in balance. And in my mind, and in our philosophy of light switch, there are three overlapping circles, which is logistics, financial, and creative. And what we try to do as designers, I think we all do this, whether we're aware of this or not, is make the overlap, the Venn in that Venn diagram as big as possible. And obviously some projects start wildly out of scale. You have this huge creative circle and a really teeny financial circle, or you've got a show that's got a really challenging load and you have a big creative vision and a really challenging logistics thing. It's about trying to keep all of those in balance as much as possible. But for me, some of the first questions I try to ask clients is to get them kind of out of the tactical just for a minute. And I think one of the aspirational things for me at Disney is how so much of their work starts with a purity of notion of concept. So some of the questions I try to ask is, all right, let's just extrapolate something hypothetical. You're on the plane home from your show, no matter what it is, there's two people sitting in the row behind you and they're talking about your show. What's the one thing you want them to be saying? What's the one takeaway? You look on social media, which I think you've probably heard about social media. I think it's going to be big. It's kind of new. Keep an eye on it. I think it's going to be an upcoming thing. That's my top tip takeaway for the podcast. People are posting about your show. What do you want them to be saying? And I think especially for the people who are standing on stage and for performers, really understanding fundamentally what they want people to take away. What is the, I call it an emotional souvenir. What's the emotional souvenir you want to give to your audience that they take away? What's that one thing that you want them to have that they tell their friends about? You had to see this show because X. I saw this show because Y. I'm going to post about this thing because people need to know Z. Then Greg's absolutely right. The tactics of this are incredibly important. And Kyle, I loved what you were saying about embracing the process of using all of these incredible tools to help our clients facilitate that. But to me, that's the bedrock. The foundation is how do you want people to feel? We all live and work in a business that is ultimately about delivering an emotional exchange with the audience and making people feel differently when they leave. And I think we needed no better example of this than the post-pandemic wave of people wanting to do this kind of almost like revenge experience, which is I feel starved. I want to immerse myself in as many of these emotional responses as possible. And for me, at least, the pandemic actually coming out of it certainly was a huge sigh of relief, not only because I could pay my bills, but also because it was a validation that what we do matters. Now, I think all of us get jaded. We all work on shows, whether it be for corporate clients or entertainers or whatever, where we go, this is really what I'm doing, honestly. But it does matter. And it's that emotional exchange, I think, making people feel differently that matters. That is super interesting. And it was the contrarian view, which is really amazing. Okay, I'm going to throw out a question. Anybody can answer this. I just want to know, does AI fit in a lighting world or a workflow? Is there AI? Does anyone have an opinion on that? Yeah, I think it does. Absolutely. I mean, something that we have found ourselves using AI for is in the early phases of creation and conception. I mean, as an art direction tool, it's absolutely fabulous. I mean, especially because we crossed the blend of doing scenic design and production design as a whole. These days, we can use that. There's a lot of tools out there, of course, and everything from creating storyboards and video content concepts. And even to scenic and lighting design, I found using these tools has really become a valid part of our process, for sure. Especially early on, like I said. I mean, there are, I will say, there are some cool tools out there now for using AI in the programming standpoint, too, from how to execute in a lighting console and creating scripts and things. And I think that is just starting to turn the wheels a little bit. But don't rely on that yet, I would say. But we definitely have dabbled a little bit. But definitely early on in the creative process. I mean, I think it's a valid tool that these days is only just scratching the surface. Any other thoughts on AI, anybody? Yeah, I completely agree with you, Kyle. For us, getting the client from, I have no idea what I want, to that's sort of what I want, is always so much further than the distance from that sort of what I want to exactly what I want. And for us in our studio, it's dramatically reduced the amount of, oh my god, I'm going to spend six hours looking on Pinterest for the image that looks the way I want, to being able to very precisely move the levers of an image. Often sitting with a client, and I mean, we would never sit down with a client and go, all right, kids, today, set aside a day, we're going to all look at Pinterest together. But sitting down with a client with a really robust AI solution and say, all right, let's move some levers together. Let's all get in the crayons. Let's get to the point where we find something that has the sense of what I want. To me, that's the power of AI. I really, maybe I'll eat these words, don't think it's going to replace any of our jobs. I don't think it's going to take over the creative process, but is a really focused tool to heighten that creative arc and shorten that timeline, because God knows we might do projects that have enough money, but we never do projects that have enough time. It's a really useful tool. Gotcha. I was just going to say, I think we're naive to think that we're not going to use it. What we do in the design process, just really to build on what John said, we have tangible movements that create intangible results. Oh, I like that. That's juicy. Hashtag. Yeah, write that down, John. I literally just did. Because this setting, this level, this fixture, this pan, this tilt does that. On the creative side of things, we think we can help it, but we can't. We have these restraints that we have to think inside the box. When you go to mid-journey and you just word vomit what you want to do and what you want to see, mid-journey doesn't understand the tangible movements that we have to make. It gives you back something and then we'll reverse engineer it and back into what it gives us and go, that's incredible. We had an event in Ireland not too long ago and we just couldn't hit what our end client wanted. We literally went into Midjourney, word vomited, and by no means did we copyright or take anything, but the inspiration you get from that, because Midjourney doesn't care how we get to that. They just say, what about this? And we go, that's a great idea. Let's back into this. And then we make it work. And then I feel like, certainly in the business of lighting and the mechanics that we don't want to do, it can help a lot. Take this agreement from the client, look at it. Is there anything in here that feels non-standard? We've all been in situations like we're in the NDA, they sneak in something about a non-compete or something. Just look through here real quick. I'm laughing because we had this happen exactly yesterday. You're so on point and timely, Greg. Yeah. And it's like an existing client and it's like some crazy thing and I find it great. And you can use it. I thought where Richard was going, but certainly the visual stuff, but also you can say, I'm trying to decide between a Diablo and a BMFL. Give me a comparison of their weight versus output or whatever. Obviously, those are not two lights that you'd necessarily, but it can help you do certain things that maybe you would ask an assistant to do or dump on the draftsman. Hey, just make sure, whatever. I like that process of being able to find a way to not clean up an email because doing that stuff I love doing. I love the communication process, but look through this and tell me if I'm trying to tell them that they don't have enough money, but I like them very much or something. Put that in a nice, say that in a nice way or something. You're going to have to program your computer and teach it this first so AI can tell you the answers. So I don't have enough money is definitely not a teachable effect. Tell it to your kids. Okay, my next question is to Richard and Richard, where do you find inspiration for developing amazing designs? Where's your source of inspiration? I'd like to hear this from everybody. I have a reading this question and kind of thinking this through beforehand was, do I actually say this or do I not say this? When I fly and I've got my headphones on, I can't explain emotionally that when I'm in the air or on a long haul, I just go somewhere different. You're preaching to the choir with Les here because Les doesn't like aviation at all. He's not an airplane nerd at all, right? At all. No, no. No, no. If I'm going to cry on a movie, it's while I'm watching it on an airplane. When you get into all the royalty free music and you can choose by emotion, I'll sit on a plane, put on my headphones and choose sentimental and I'll listen to all the tracks they feed me on sentimental and I just... Aw, you just sit there on the plane and just weep? I want to hug, John. Aw, Richard, you can call me anytime, buddy. And so I do find music. Let me just say music. A lot of time, music, I find inspiration. Okay, Kyle, same question. Where do you find inspiration to make amazing lighting designs? Oh, I mean, it definitely comes from various sources, of course. Anything from just walking a dog down the street. Maybe it's at night, maybe it's at sunset, sunrise. I mean, there's lots to find from the world around us, of course. And I love the statement about God earlier. And then I feel like the world is just full of light these days from every aspect of walking to a movie theater, walking downtown, you can really find something. That sparks interest. And, you know, sometimes it's take; I try and do this more often now is take pictures, because sometimes I'll go, you know, and obviously, if you can file those and come back to them, it's great. But or just take a mind mental picture and come back to that, because there are certain times where you walk in, you know, even up to an elevator in a hotel lobby, and you see something cool, you're like, wow, I didn't, you know, didn't think to use light this way. And it could be a small scale that you could, it could, you know, grow into something that could find its way onto a stage through your vision. And that's always a fun way. And then obviously, you know, of course, collaboration and finding through other friends and things. But yeah, there's always ways to find, find, you just have to look a little bit more broad, broad stroke. I feel like Greg inspiration, where do you find it? I mean, I, you know, before the pandemic, we used to everyone used to run around saying, I'm not going to be on my deathbed wishing I had done one more show during the pandemic. I think we all kind of wanted one more show. But like, I think I will be I think I will be on my bed wishing I had seen one more show. I mean, I think not to sort of admit the rampant plagiarism that characterizes my career, but it's from the work of other lighting designers that I find the most inspiration by seeing, you know, just stumbling into a showroom in Vegas and throwing down some money at the box office, you know, to go in and see something I wasn't seeing. It's, it's the designer you haven't seen before. It's the act you don't know, it's the play that you've seen that you don't know anything about eyes wide open, and you see something and that person is telling a story that resonates with me, and I'd like to run with that. And I feel like it's, there's so much inspiration out there. Now, there's so much can't get out, you can watch YouTube, you know, there's so much you can see. And by learning from the other professionals in our business, I feel like that's, that's the so I guess I've never had an original idea, but I have good friends and colleagues. So that's, it's valuable. Yeah, it really is. Wasn't it, wasn't it, wasn't it Picasso that said Einstein, Picasso that said intelligence borrows genius deals, right? So I think that's the case, you're a genius, mate. Well, Greg, I've personally been in at least hundreds of ballrooms with you. And so there has to have been some inspiration. So there was definitely some perspiration. I've seen the first hand with you. Absolutely, absolutely. John Featherstone, inspiration. Yeah, there's two. I'm right with Greg, you know, I'm a big man on quotes. I'm going to try to add another one. My fellow countryman, Isaac Newton once said, if I have sinned further, it is because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. And, and I mean, we can all take them off, you know, Roy Bennett, Mark Brickman, Peter Moore, Steve Cohen, so much inspiration from the work of others, and not a small amount from a couple of people on this Zoom as well. But for me, the core is always goes back to nature. It always goes back to getting outside. It always goes back to immersing myself in some of the best lighting design you'll ever see. And it's done with one light. You know, the Japanese have this, this brilliant word, which is called Komorebi, which is the word for that specific feeling that light has when it's filtered through trees. And I love the Japanese language, because they have these incredibly descriptive words. But finding that, and Kyle, I love what said about taking a mental picture as well, immersing yourself, not going like, oh, where's my phone? And let me frame it right and all of this stuff. Just being in the moment and being aware of that ephemeral moment in time that's going to be lost. For me, getting out in nature is really pivotal to that, to that inspiration. And so much of what I see myself doing, I'm like, oh, yeah, you're trying to make that look like sunlight coming through trees, or you're trying to make that look like a sunrise. And so much of the language that I find myself using working with programmers is anchored in the natural world. So that's the two, people and the wonder of nature is where I find my inspiration. I'm going to, I'm going to make a recommendation. Hold on, Greg, one second. I'm going to make a recommendation for those of you who haven't been to the bamboo forest in Kyoto. Oh my gosh, it's one of my favorite places. Yeah, yes. Yeah, it's beautiful, beautiful. And you will get, you will get some of that. Greg, what are your thoughts? No, I just want, I just wanted to vibe on what John said too, because there is, you know, and obviously I haven't told enough running stories on this call, but there is, I was, I was running after a gig, probably I should have been working, but I was on the West side highway in New York and that, you know, they was, it was spring, but it still had that, you know, the low angle light coming through the, through the trees is John so beautifully articulated. And it's like, sometimes you see a moment lighting wise where you feel a combination of, it's almost like an instant nostalgia. You realize that this moment of light that you see naturally, we're somehow never going to have again. And even as you see it, your memory of it is fading. So you want to kind of cling to that moment and like, and, and try to re-express it on stage or like find a way to make that moment last. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about lighting is we all see it from a slightly different way. We all remember that moment differently, but we all long to get, to recreate those beautiful moments that have defined afternoons, you know, and to see that is somehow translate that into, you know, 50 foot candles at 5,600 degrees is like, you know, whatever we have some physical limitations, but it's a great time. I just got to jump in. Greg said something you will never ever hear me say. I was running after a gig. Same way, Richard, they'd have to be a very persistent bear involved. Yeah. If you see me running, I'm being chased. Exactly. But you, you, you, you're right about the perception piece, Greg. I tease my, my brothers and sisters in the audio department frequently. No, you're absolutely right. Absolutely right. Audio is science. It is applied science. Lighting, however, is art. And then that's just kind of the mic drop moment. Then you just walk away. So as they, as they chase you then Richard, so we're back to being chased, I guess. I think, I think you were describing Claude Monet when you see the image and, and, you know, he's trying to recreate that, the light in his pictures and with his dots. I have only two more questions. This question is to Kyle. Kyle predict the future. How will lighting design change and anyone else please opine as well? Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, I think this kind of goes back to, you know, how technology evolves and it goes to the perfect point to say how, you know, 50 foot candles, 5,600 are limitations of, you know, I think the technology has always been, sort of, you know, the drive, a driving force of where we are now and where we go to the future of this, because, you know, we are always striving to create that perfect sunset, if you will, or that, you know, the magic moment, but, you know, the tools we use to do it, I think, is a big part of what the future predicts, of course, and, you know, everything's getting brighter and brighter and brighter because we have screens in our faces all the time. And inherently, that's where it seems to be going. But I also find that, you know, sometimes I hate the saying, but less is more. And it's almost, you know, you can do more, less, less is less. But yes, yeah, I think, you know, the future is certainly defined a little bit by, you know, like we talked about with AI and, and then obviously, you know, those are tools just as as a new big, you know, massive GLP wash fixture that seems pretty extraordinary that I want to play with, like things like that, you know, those are always going to be the tools, I think, that drive the future of what we do. But, you know, obviously, also, to John's point, you know, the creative process, I don't think is going to change a whole lot from what we bring, and what we get from our creative ideas to reality isn't going to change a whole lot. But I think the way we manipulate that and use the tools at hand, I think is a huge part of it. Any other thoughts on the future of lighting design? Yeah, I think the future is no pun intended bright, you know, people have been predicting the end of live experiences since the time of the Greeks. I'm old, I've lived through the explosion of home-based video technology, we obviously all suffered through the pandemic. Those are merely two examples of people predicting the end of the shared live experience. The future is bright for the shared live experience. It will certainly, by any metric that I can predict, not be within my lifetime, that virtual technology can replace the experience and that visceral feeling of the moment when the house lights go out, of sitting in a room together of an audience of people who have been either looking forward to this, because it's a break from their normal humdrum workday, and they've been flown to Vegas by their customer for some boondoggle show, or it's the ticket that they've been waiting for and they bought six months ago, and they've been really looking forward to that, or to Greg's point, something that you've just stumbled upon and discovered, which is an amazing experience. Technology is never going to get rid of that, so what I think we need to do is have everybody encourage our clients to calm down and nose-breathe a little bit, to Carl's point about pulling this technology into focus with AI and using it as a tool, not something to be afraid of, that's our future, is to continue to be, as much as we can, the adults in the room. It's not an aspiration that I wear well, and guide our clients through these changes in technology. Change is disruptive, change is difficult, change is simultaneously exciting and terrifying. What we all, I think, have an opportunity to do as creatives is to say, that's great, let's bring it back to a fundamental, let's breathe for a minute, let's do what Richard was saying about the process with Disney. Think about the why of what we're trying to do, and then the rest of it is going to be empowered as a tool to liberate that creativity. I think that's the future, and why it's exciting to me is every tool seems to be creatively liberating if we choose to accept it as that. Yeah, and kind of another thought on this, and this may be foreshadowing your final question a little bit, but looking around at the faces on this call, for those that see the Zoom, I think we're of a certain age to have pioneered the V1, to have pioneered the digital consoles, to have been in show hoping your Hog 2 doesn't crash, and that you're on the beta software. To all of those coming up behind, you're welcome. We've all had just the speed of network switches, first of all, and what we can do in push and control was an incredible hurdle for a lot of us to see this new technology coming out there. So I think it's really freed us up to kind of let go of some of our apprehension on the tech side, and we can lean on it a little heavier and trust on it a little more, and just knowing the technology is going to keep us moving forward. So bless the beta users and the V1 testers out there. As four of us on the call, again, you're welcome. Okay, this is my last question, and I'm throwing it to John to start us off. For anyone who's listening, who's an up-and-coming, maybe a student, maybe someone who's going to school or just starting in the lighting design field, what is your recommendation and advice if you're going to pursue this as a career, other than working nights, weekends, and cold and hot ballrooms? And what advice can you give them for someone who wants to do this role and make it their career? Yeah, I think some of this is fairly cliche, because I think it's the same stuff we all heard when we were starting our careers and we all rolled our eyes. To me, never miss an opportunity to see work being practiced. I don't care if you don't like ballet, go to ballet, you're going to learn something. I don't care if you don't adhere to production design in houses of worship, don't care, show up, you'll learn something, you'll enjoy something. Whatever the field is, you're going to learn something. Even if it's, I'm not going to do that, that's not what I want to do. Immerse yourself in all of these influences. You'll grow as a creative. Knowing what you don't know and you don't like is as important, if not more, than knowing what you do want to do and you do like. Write stuff down. It's a strong message to those of us who can't remember. I think it was Greg that said he couldn't remember what he had for breakfast. Sames. If you write stuff down, it's a strong message to those that you're working with that you're taking what they're seriously and that you're going to remember it because they're probably not. Have fun. Every day I get up and I feel I am honored, blessed, and fortunate to do a job that I love. It's supposed to be fun. Obviously, we all have shit days. We all have difficult clients. We all have shows that go badly. We all have things that go wrong. Find the joy in as much of it as you possibly can because if it isn't fun, most of the time you're doing it wrong. Got it. Greg Owen, your thoughts? I would like to be in this business and I'm an up-and-comer. What advice do you have? John's points, I agree with everything. I would say to see as much as you can. Do what you love. I think we all have made, to some extent, we need to pay rent. The question is, when do you start making those changes to get the income that you think you need? I have two regrets, if I could say them. One is that once I got so involved in corporate, I stopped doing legit as much as I would have liked. I wish I had done legit. I still do a lot creative projects that excite me, television. It's hard to maintain a relationship in the theater because theater takes forever. A play takes three industrials. It's three or four weeks. I wish I had kept doing theater longer. Towards the end of when I was doing theater, I was so desperate for it that I wish I had read the script before I lit the last few plays. If you don't have any time and you're doing two plays a year and you're sitting in the basement of an East Village shithole and then you realize this play is garbage, it's a terrible feeling. Read the script. Even if you're not getting paid, even if it's something you're doing for fun, you can still be just as miserable if it's not a good play. That's very specific to my conditions, but I guess that's it. Good advice. Newly noted. Mr. Dunn, what advice do you have for the next generation coming up? I'm going to try to be quick. I'm so passionate about this question. Real quick, be ready. Be ready when they call. And when they call, say yes. Quick story. I drove down to Disney from Virginia to apply to be a cast member. They said, yes, you'll be an intern, show up on June whatever this date. I sold a bunch of things. I moved down to Disney and I went to the casting center and I said, I'm here. It's June whatever. I'm here. And they looked at me and said, why are you here? We don't have anything for you. And I'm standing there with my car literally full of everything. And I said, John, don't cry. And then I said, just give me anything. Give me anything. I'm here now. So I worked for three months selling the glow in the dark jewelry on main street with the vest. I guess that was lighting. It's a stretch. It's a stretch. Yeah. So, but I did that all to meet the technical manager. And then that's where my career started from that. So I said, yes. And the last thing is be a good person. Am right. Yeah. Add to our industry. And I'm going to tell a story that John doesn't know I'm going to tell. And I don't even know if he remembers. I was on one of the most stressful shows of my career, 36 semis, Javits Center. It was just ridiculous. And I ended up with a pretty huge, serious decision I had to make with one of the staff on the team. I didn't know what to do. I was going to lose no matter what decision I made. There was negative outcome, whatever I did. John and I don't have a close in-person relationship, but we connected many, many years ago on an almost an emotional level. And I have so much respect for John. All I needed was John to tell me I was making the right decision. And what it did for me to know that when I hung up the phone, emotional standing in the middle of the Javits Center, I went over and I knew I was going to disappoint one half of the event or the other, that it was the right decision. And I needed somebody like John to tell me you're doing the right thing. Be that person. Be that person. So when somebody needs you, they can say I've made the right choice. John, thank you. Oh, you're welcome, mate. I remember it well. And you've been there for me as well. And we and Greg, you and I, you and I have known each other a long time, too. So it's about trying to leave things just a little better than you found them. I love that. And Kyle, bring us home. Well, how do I follow up? What's your advice to the next generation? I mean, honestly, quite truthfully, and I just told someone this the other day, is listen to your peers, listen to your elders, listen to these other three amazing land designers on this call who can really tell from their experiences. And you can learn a lot from that. I think that's what guided me and a lot of choices I've made along the way. I started in theater back in New York and on the off-Broadway shows in those dark rooms, getting my hands dirty, doing everything I could to learn any which way I can and see as much as you can. I can't say that enough to go out and see. I think I fell a lot into the music world because I went to a lot of concerts, obviously experienced it and loved it. Coming from a theatrical background that pivoted my career, obviously, very quickly. But yeah, I can't say enough. Listen to your peers. And there is no stupid questions, I feel like. Just ask away. Someone's going to have the right answer for you, especially for those good people like that who can help answer and help guide the light for you. No pun intended. So well said about the questions, Kyle. The only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask. And if anybody's making fun of you or teasing you for asking questions, they're not the right person to be asking those questions of. Yeah. Well, I want to tell you the one thing that is common among this group is everybody loves the work that we do. And we're in an industry, you almost have to love it to be good at it because it's very tasking, long hours, many different environments, unusual clients. But I think we're all very fortunate to have found something that we love to do and we're good at it. And I want to thank all of you today, John and Greg and Kyle and Richard, you guys are amazing. I'm glad to say that I see you all in ballrooms, convention centers, theatrical venues, music venues. And we have a lot of fun. And when the curtains go down or the lights go off, we create these audience experiences. And you all have been amazing today. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody, great job. Thanks, Les. Yeah, thank you, Les. Thanks, Les.