HOW CREATIVE TEAMS DELIVER MONUMENTAL PROJECTION MAPPING

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have four amazing guests. I have Patrick Verhey. He is the Director of Media Research and Development and Training for LMG and LMG Systems Innovation. I have Steve Dietz, who is the CEO and founder of 900lbs. I have Jayson Wise, who is the Director of Video Systems for LMG. And I have Bart Kresa. He is the Creative Director for BARTKRESA Studios. And everyone, welcome to the show. I'm super excited today, and I hope you all are going to be excited in the audience listening to experts talking about working in the world of projection mapping. We just got off of two events with some of this team, working in South Florida, a projection mapping hotel with BARTKRESA. And we were working in Washington, D. C., working on the monument, the Washington Monument. And those are both real interesting projects. So today, the world is all about projection mapping. So I'm going to throw the first question, and it's going to go to Bart Kresa. What is your thoughts on the best use of projection mapping? The best use of projection mapping is when you want to transform a physical space or a physical object into immersive experience with storytelling. And I would say that this is the best use of projection mapping. Super. Okay. I'm going to ask Patrick Verhey, could you add to that? What are your thoughts on the best use of projection mapping? It's a very effective way to distribute big messages or big storytellings. As Bart said, it's a very nice way to do an immersive experience, but also usually you have a big reach of audiences. So if you have something, you're going to have a lot of people looking and experience by themselves. It's a very nice way, especially if you go into the bigger objects like big buildings or like, as you said, the Washington Monument. Got it. Steve Dietz, content guy, what are your thoughts on the best use of projection mapping? Well, it's a relationship between the story and the physical structure, right? Thinking about the architectural features, is there a way that we can think about the audience's point of view and make, you know, just work with the physical structure as best we can and make it seamless to accentuate the key features from windows to edge work to ledges? And how do we bring those things to life and tell the story in the most unique and cool way that we can together? Got it. Sounds like storytelling is definitely part of projection mapping. Jayson Wise, could you give your thoughts on projection mapping and the best use of it? Well, you know, I think a lot of times what you might want to projection map on might be the object itself that you're wanting to promote. So, I mean, you know, you could have a bus, you could have a car, you could have a plane, and you could, you know, that might be your, you know, what you want to tell a story about. And, you know, it could transform right in front of your eyes. So, I mean, we see a lot of things day to day, and we just like, we just walk by them. And when something transforms, that's an eye catcher. And that gives you the ability to capture that audience and tell that message. So, it sounds like your object is truly your canvas that you're working to tell that story on. Absolutely. Got it. Okay. My next question is back to Bart. Bart, how do you start a discussion with a client when they say, let's do some projection mapping, and they do some searching and find out that you're one of the experts in the United States on doing this? And how do you start the planning for something like this? What would be the discussion and how do you engage with a client about it? The equipment is a very important part of it. You know, clients have different wishes and different spaces, and we have to make sure that we have enough, you know, light power to put on a building or in a space. And then usually the clients know something about what they would like to get. So, we start with sketches and mood boards and, you know, that starts the conversation. Got it. Sketches, mood boards, and obviously a lot of bright projectors. Just a little trivia, we had 40, 40,000 lumen projectors on the Washington Monument for New Year's Eve. And that object was 555 feet. So, a lot of horsepower. Same question to you, Patrick. How do you start the conversation on projection mapping? And, you know, what's like the first thing? Well, coming from the technical side, I'm probably more like the boo guy in this conversation because I'm usually testing everything out if we actually can do what the client thinks we can do. Like, can we position the projectors in any given spot? Do we have any trees or any obstacles in the way? How many projectors do we need? Do we fit in the budget with all of that? But for me, it's mainly like giving guidance on the content production and also on the physical placement of projectors. A lot of clients think about, hey, this building would be cool. But then you see on pictures that there's a lot of trees in the way, which you obviously cannot cut down or move or something like that. So, yeah, I try to kind of like make this happen in a technology world. I got it. Okay. No trees allowed in projection mapping. That is one of the first rules. I just got some super knowledge. Steve Deitz, if you are going to talk about doing projection mapping, what's the first part of the conversation in your opinion? Just to add to great points from Bart and Patrick, going on site, right, really getting a great understanding of the location, the environment, the facade itself, understanding the gotchas, the things that can get in the way to Patrick's point, really understanding how it catches light. Are we having to hit it from multiple angles, right? Does it have a lot of form and structure that we have to work around? So going on site, that location scouting is very, very important. Got it. Jayson, I would say when you went to school and learned geometry, was that a part of the process of projection mapping? And when you start this, is math a component of this? Well, definitely math is a component of this, but no one tells you when you're in school, like, hey, you're going to do some cool things and you're going to need to know this math and here's why. So, I mean, math is definitely a component of projection mapping to understand what your angles are, what your distances are. You can know a couple dimensions, but then through math, you can find those other dimensions and that's key to being successful. Got it. Well, we don't want to do projection mapping and not be successful, that's for sure. I'm back to Bart. Bart, if we're talking about pre-production, we talked about so far mood boards and you're talking about storytelling, but what's your process for pre-production to ensure a good outcome? Brightness of the projection is very important. We calculate the brightness for the projection for ambient projection to be 20 foot candles for a situation when they may have a concert, you know, 40 foot candles and with fashion show or kickboxing event, that would be 80 foot candles. So the brightness is the key to have a successful project. And like I said, you know, moving on, creating a map and then having sketches and mood boards and then the designs, we do everything step by step. So from the designs, we go into animations and rendering and then finally programming the video servers. Got it. And what's the time period typically for you to go through this process? Is it weeks, months? Like what would you tell a client the process should be or should take? Where do you start planning? How far in advance is the normal approach? It depends on the number of the designs. You know, a design takes usually a week to execute and then with animation also being a week, that's a minimum for one design. So a project can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months and half a year. Got it. Wow. Half a year, huh? Okay. Patrick, take me through your process of pre-production and planning and how do you… You had mentioned about the trees, but there's more to pre-production than the trees. Do you do testing? There's way more. We do testing. We do, as Jayson said, there's a lot of math involved. One point is where we start to look at is the dimensions and it's sometimes really hard to figure out what the actual physical dimensions of a building is because sometimes the drawings are not correct, sometimes the specifications are not there and you can't just simply measure it. But somehow we need to get those real-life dimensions into pixel spaces. So that's where the conversation with me and the content people starts then. So I need to calculate how many projectors we use, how big is the object we want to project on, how do we lay out those projectors. And then again, math and math over math and a lot of calculations go into until we get to the point where I hopefully very early in the process get involved in the conversation with whoever makes the content because they need to know these numbers. They need to know how many pixels wide, how many pixels high, how we want to produce this content, which codecs and all of that stuff. So hopefully, and also the successful shows, we did have a very early start where we did conversations with the content people in a very early state to determine where to go with this and how to render this stuff out so that we know everything fits perfectly onto whatever we project onto. Got it. So Steve, is there certain content when you're doing pre-production that might work better than other content? And when you're creating it, you've got to figure out whether it's testing or you've got to figure out what's going to look good. How do you go about doing that? Understanding that aspect ratio is so critical. And with the Washington Monument, thinking about, imagine wrapping a pencil with a story. So understanding all sides, how they're going to relate together, making that stitching as seamless as possible, and thinking through, to your point, certain content and focal points of that content is going to be key. What do we need to mask and crop effectively? Thinking through things like foreground, midground, background layers. We can use things like parallax. But just really thinking about the relationship on all four sides using the Washington Monument as an example is definitely going to be key. So Jayson, I'm going to throw a different question at you. And I'd like to know your thoughts on this. One, on site, what obstacles do you face? And I know weather can definitely be one of them, because I was in DC. But if shows are in Florida, it can be warmer. So take me through some obstacles during the setup of all the equipment and how you overcame some of them. Well, I would probably break that down into four key elements, that sort of thing. I mean, you've got environmental, which is rain, wind, snow, temperature, hot and cold. You've got infrastructure things that you're going to have to deal with. How are you going to get power to your projection? How would signal pass, source distribution, those sort of things. And then there's the whole logistics, physical disruption, you know, just on site, you know, gear placement, where's scaffolding going to go? Are you going to have to use a crane to move your projection stack into place? The amount of time needed to get that in place? And then the aesthetics, I would say disruption, you know, just because you're transforming something from one thing to something else. And, you know, you have to be a little bit all right with that for a short duration of time, because you're going to have to do some testing and some alignment. So, I mean, those are some things that you're going to have to deal with. Wind, you know, and wind and rain, you know, I mean, temperatures can be crucial. So Mother Nature may or may not cooperate with you, depending upon lots of factors completely out of your control. Absolutely. I mean, I mean, I would say that kind of leads to what I would call pace plan, you know, primary alternative contingency and emergency plan, you know, so, you know, what's what's your primary plan? You know, I got a set of main projectors. I got a set of online backup projectors as my alternative that are running at the same time. My contingency, I've got projectors backup standing by, should I need to replace those? And then my emergency, hey, maybe I've already coordinated within that region some additional resources that could come in at last minute's notice to help, you know, backfill any other thing that I might need. So, Patrick, you're on site. And can you add to the obstacles that Jayson described? I can drop in a very quick story from Washington, DC. But obviously, you can only do your projection mapping when it's dark. So we were kind of restricted to night time. But also in Washington, we needed to have the lights on the building be off. And we only could only do this on certain times. And then as things go, the night where I could actually go outside and spend eight to nine hours outside to do my mapping was the night when we had a winter storm warning in Washington with the advisory to stay inside and not go outside because things might flow into your face. And we had 25 degrees and wind gusts of 40 miles per hour. That's the moment where I grabbed my laptop and walked outside and sat on the grass to do the alignment. And we didn't have another choice because it was the 30th of December. Next night was the show. So we needed to get it done that night. No matter what the conditions, no matter if it was freezing, raining or whatever, you just need to get it done because obviously, we can't delay New Year's Eve. You know, there's nothing like doing shows inside because it doesn't rain and we don't have wind and we don't have hail inside. So the weather can really be a thing. I'm going to throw the same question to Steve, and I really want to know about the obstacles of creating content. So if you're producing content, what are those obstacles that you face? A big obstacle is helping the client understand that black is a pass-through, right? It's transparent. And a lot of times when we look at any video or photography or anything, it could be illustration, paintings, anything, you've got all that depth, right? And that color range, well, that darkest black is going to be pass-through. And so helping them understand, can we use blues instead of blacks? Can we use greens instead of blacks? But we've got to think about how do we add depth without using black a lot of times, right? And so that's a really big one on the client side, as well as content creators. Just looking at when we're on-site testing, the brightest colors are generally going to pop, right? White, yellow, bright green, bright blue, and just going down from there. Got it. Bart, any thoughts on content creation and what works and what doesn't work? I used to, I like to use a lot of color and texture because this really transforms the space. So that's kind of my signature, you know, look, it's having a lot of textures and color. Got it. Color and texture. Can I drop something in the color point? There's another nice story. Obviously, a lot of those projection mapping things are very visible to the public. And I did think about it, but I probably didn't think about it all the way. Even the color of your test patterns you used to do the alignment are being part of internet discussions. So the red and green color bars or test patterns I used in Washington made it onto a Reddit thread that people complained that this is a Christmas decoration thing and it shouldn't be religious. At the same time, on another occasion, I used more colorful test patterns and people complained it would be too beat LBGTQ plus kind of scheme. So you need to think that through as well because you are in a public space and people are going to snap pictures of it and put them up on Reddit for long, long discussions about how this might be done and why it is wrong. I got it. So my next question is back to Jayson. Jayson, what are the best attributes for the perfect thing to project on? Tell me, if you had obviously a white building, is that like the perfect surface or what are your thoughts? What are the things you want to project on and what are the things that don't work? Well, I would say probably anything with a consistent shade or hue. I mean, if you've got a lot of, well, that's if it really depends. I mean, if you have a bunch of windows cut out, you can use those to your advantage. Those are obviously going to appear a little differently, but it depends on what blank space do you have to put your message on as far as a canvas. Ultimately, you want to be smooth, you want to be matte type of surface, not highly reflective, but I would say consistent as possible. I mean, if you have writing on there, keep in mind that that might on a solid field might appear to either pop out or not pop out. So some color study might need to also take place at that same time. Got it. Bart, your thoughts on the perfect surface to project on and also what are your thoughts on glass? The glass doesn't work unless you cover the glass with something like vinyl sticker, but I like the architecture that it's a mix of flat and ornate surfaces that works best. Got it. Okay. Patrick, any thoughts on the surface we project on? I usually say I don't care about the surface too much as long as I have light on it, but obviously, the brighter the surface, the better the outcome will be projecting onto a black building or very dark building will be an issue. As Jayson mentioned, projecting onto something very shiny can be an issue, although I projected on airplanes and they are the definition of being shiny, so it works as well. But yeah, it is all a case-to-case scenario where I need to look at what the surface gives you and how to tackle it and how to make it work in the best way. And as Steve said, colors like black don't work really well because you have ambient light. And you also need to keep in mind when you plan all of this that you get a mix of colors. If you project red onto a reddish building, it will look different than if you project it onto a white building. So you need to work with this when you plan out your scenes and your color schemes for all your projection stuff. Steve, your thoughts? I concur. I concur. You concur. The content that you create, you obviously are determining what the surface is to make sure it's going to look right. Yeah. To Bart's point too, if there is glass in windows, how do we make sure that we accentuate the areas around that? Let's make that window pop by bringing the edge work to life, right? Using things, visuals, particle effects, things like that, nice gradients. So knowing that the glass will be passed through, but are there unique things we could do with that? But to everybody's point, generally the lighter the surface, the better the results. Got it. You know, I think when projection mapping is done well, it becomes a topic of discussion and a point that people are having a shared experience. And Bart, do you agree with that? And can you maybe tell me a time where you did something and the experience was very impactful to an audience and you can recall? Yes, a number of times. I projected on the space shuttle that some palaces in India and the project we've done recently with you. You know, from what I know from the client, people are still talking about it, you know, so it was a highlight of the event. That's awesome. Patrick, do you think people that were at the Washington Monument or within 20 miles of that building got some kind of feeling? Because I know when the fireworks went off and it felt very patriotic to me as I was there. I know it was to 150th anniversary, but what are your thoughts on how people feel in an environment when they're experiencing something like this? If it felt patriotic to you, it's actually perfectly done because that's what it should have been done. It was meant to be patriotic. It was meant to showcase the history of the United States. And from what I've seen and heard on the internet and on news outlets, there was a massive positive feedback from almost everybody, no matter of the political direction or what party they vote for or anything like that. It was just purely positive. We need to do this again. Can we do this every year? All of those comments were all over the social media platforms. And that's where it's very impactful. And especially with the Washington Monument, you can see it from almost everywhere in the city. Even when you would fly in by a plane, you can already see it. So those people who came in by night, they would see it on the plane. And I mean, we had the president of the on a helicopter and take a full 360 circle around the monument while we're running the show. So I think that's as impactful as it can be. Got it. Steve, tell me, do you feel like the storytelling can create an emotional experience for the audience? Absolutely. I mean, to Patrick's great points, it was goosebumps, right? 555 feet tall, um, such a huge structure and giving people that feeling of being proud and almost honor and a responsibility of respect, right? Just telling the story of our history and, you know, not getting into politics, but getting into being proud, right? Patriotism. For sure. There were people literally crying after the show. I could see that. And we that they stand, stood there crying after the show ended. You know, Bart, I just want to ask you a question. Have you had a similar experience on any of the other shows where there was an emotional connection to the audience? Yes. A number of times, you know, we did the project at the opening of the USC village and then I saw people crying and that, that really, you know, pays off for all of the have an emotional component and people get high engagement and obviously you have to have bright projectors. You have to have a good reflective surface and you have to have a good story to tell. Jayson, your thoughts on, you know, the connection between all the hard work it takes to put it together and the outcome and how does it make you feel? And I know you were in Washington, how hard it takes to put this together to deliver something amazing. I really have to give it to the projectionists and projectionist assistants and everybody that takes to put this together. I mean, you know, you've got a start date and you got to end date, you know, and the show must go on. It's got to happen and it's got to be great. And, you know, to have the tenacity and the, the, the, the, this, the power to push through whatever it takes to make this happen. You know, it's, it's, there are a lot of times there's some unknowns, but, you know, at the end of the day, you know, when you see it all, like come to life, it's, it makes it all worthwhile. And there were people around the mall that, that, that were like, Hey, well, that's really cool. You know? And so they, they thought it was something. You know, we are all fortunate to work in a business where we get to create extraordinary experiences and they come in all different shapes and sizes and flavors. And this, this ironic, this Washington thing we did was like a historic event because it hadn't been done in this form and fashion. And I find that one of the things that keeps me excited about the industry we're in is to keep pushing the envelope and doing amazing work. And, you know from when the content creators tell the story and they have a good canvas to do it. And if you can touch people's lives and I think that's a total win. And I think there will be more projection mapping and projects and objects and throughout the world. I think it's, it's making a Renaissance in my opinion. And I think all of you guys are consummate professionals. And I feel like I'm excited about the next time we get to go out and do something interesting or amazing. And I'd like to thank Patrick, Steve, Jayson, and Bart for joining me today. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody great job. And I can't wait to see what's next.