HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THE NEW NORMAL FOR EXECUTING LIVE EVENTS?

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have four amazing guests. I have Tobin Sio. He's a technical director for Antechamber Design. I have Guy Meadows, who's a technical director for Full Blown Creative Group. I have a technical director, Jack Quinn, with the Taurus Communications. I have Dave Cundiff, a technical director with PHX Productions. This is quite a group of TDs, and I'm excited that our subject today is the new normal. What is happening on show site? How is our lives different today than if you rewind the clock to 2019 and there was no COVID? And so we're going to talk about a lot of those different topics. But first, I know a lot of you have lived through what we'll refer to as virtual exhaustion. We have done all kinds of virtual events in every flavor and size, and now we're going back to live and some hybrid. And so the idea is things are a little different, and there are different challenges. So I'm going to throw the first question to Tobin. And Tobin, how do you describe the new normal for executing live events? What would your description be? And I'll pass the baton so everybody can opine. Well, I think the key word here is new. It just seems like there's so many new people in the industry that have maybe just gotten their feet wet in the last couple of years. And you're kind of training them as we go along. There's just so many... Yeah, the newness of the industry. There's just people who are new to it here. We're just learning on our feet and stuff like that. We've done a million shows, right? We can do this stuff in our sleep. But then we're having to kind of, I hate to say it, almost micromanage some folks along the way just to try to get the results that we were so used to getting pre-pandemic. Well, I will tell you a lot of the people that were in our industry, some died, some retired, some went to Amazon or UPS or FedEx, some completely left the industry. So it was very interesting your comment about it's a new world because we have new people that need some training. Guy Meadows, what is your thought about our new normal? Wow, that's a tough one. But the new normal is, there's just a void. To me, maybe I'm saying the same thing that it's new, but to me it's a void. If you go out and try to start, as you start to try to put your production together, you realize there's giant holes where you can just reach out and get people that you knew. And you can work as a team and pull it all together fairly quickly. That's no longer the case. You're worried when you pick up the phone, who's going to say no? Who's going to say yes? And when you book your manager, are they going to show up or are they going to go and decide to work for someone else? But for me, it's a lack of the standard that we had of just being able to reach out and get your preferred partners to work with you on a regular basis. So Guy, it sounds like there's less people, kind of like what Tobin was saying, there's a lot of new people. And those people that are tried and true that we would call and they'd be on all our gigs, well, there's less of them. So there's a lot of demand. So it's harder to get a really good crew. That's what it sounds like. Is that kind of the, am I hitting the mark? Pretty much. But unless you're way out ahead of the curve, you're not going to get the same crews that you were used to getting. If you had a show a month or two out, you could probably get most of the crew you wanted. Nowadays, if you're not three or four months out, everybody's further ahead. People are more forward looking and afraid of the market. You know, like, oh, geez, am I going to be able to get an A1? Am I going to be able to get an A2? That's the thing. Those are the things I've run into. And I've had a lot of people say, no, no, you can't do it. People just overwhelmed, honestly. I think the concept of being overwhelmed is very appropriate. We used to have a show that would happen every May, every year. And the crew would always say, OK, thanks. The show went great. Let's put the dates in for next year. But now there's like many shows that are overlapping the same time period. So I guess the person who books in advance, who anticipates, is probably the most successful. Jack Quinn, what do you think about the new normal? What are we what are you living with? And how has your world changed? I mean, I'll definitely agree with Tobin and Guy. Obviously, the biggest challenge has been finding quality personnel for all departments. Every almost every event I do now, live event is there's a there's always a struggle to find. It could be finding just a quality A2, could be local labor in certain markets is really thin, you know, because a lot of people found work in other industries. So typically when you'd have no problem finding eight electricians and, you know, four carpenters or eight carpenters, whatever your crew needs are. That's that's been a battle. That's been my biggest concern and sort of challenge. And obviously, department heads, a lot of people, as you mentioned, less left our industry. People retired. Sadly, some we lost some people who passed away. And I think there's that. But I will say that I'm impressed or I'm encouraged. And by how much work has come back and how quickly it's come back, I, I, I kind of last fall. So go back to fall of 2021. I did a fairly good quarter and it was it was all live event. There were hybrid components, which obviously that is part of the new normal. I think we're going to see that in a lot of live events, the virtual component where some attendees are virtual or some presenters are virtual. But I quickly got back to live events then. Omicron, that wave hit in December and everything in January went away. I mean, I think that's true for all of us. I had a full January booked. And so all of January and half of February went back to either virtual or just postponed or canceled. But then it was a quick rebound. And right after January, February, I went crazy from from late February all through the spring. I had a few summer events. Now the fall is extremely busy. So it's to me. Yeah, I think that that labor shortage, talent shortage, we're going to continue to battle a little bit. But I think that curve will start to come down as we get into 2023, because, again, as Tobin mentioned, there are new people coming into the business. All of those people are getting a little bit more experienced. That sort of struggle, I think, will be with us certainly into the early part, maybe all the way through 2023. But I think it will start to balance out a little bit. Well, that's encouraging to know that there's people coming on. And and I think if people can look at this as an industry that they can make a good career and and, you know, their schools are still graduating people. So they have to find opportunities. Dave Cundiff, what do you think about the new normal? What's different for you? Well, a lot of not going to rehash all of the labor stuff that the other guys were talking about. But they're dead on. That's that's probably what I'm finding the most challenging in the new normal of what's going on in our industry. One thing that I found is that I feel like I'm reaching out to people a lot sooner and doing a lot more of crewing my shows. Like I'm reaching out. No matter who my provider is, when I call them, I'm like, OK, so here's the A1. Like I'm V1. I'm getting watch out, guys. You know, I'm giving names to my vendors and calling the techs who I trust and want the most early. We're putting them on going back to the old days of pencil and people in back when we used to handwrite our calendars and that term from the industry, you know, 20, 25 years ago where you would call somebody in pencil in for an upcoming show and just know, hey, as soon as it's booked. But but hold those dates for me. And I'm doing a lot more of that. I'm also starting stuff a lot more on a handshake without a contract. You know, I've been in shows with producers and in pencil and in days and trying to move forward because it seems like there's still a challenge. Getting the clients are still of the mindset that they can do stuff two weeks out or a month out and really to get the crew they want the gear. You know, I got a show coming up that we're just having a hard time. Some of the gear lighting, you know, they're like, what can we add this stuff? You're getting to a point where you can't add things coming up on the last minute for big, big items because a lot of gear houses are just saying they don't have it. Some of the smaller AV providers are like, you know, we don't have that in stock. Even some of the larger AV providers are like, I've got eight shows going right now. You can't have my, you know, remote spot was a thing that I ran into recently that I thought I had, you know, big company saying, no, we don't. We don't. They went on to another show. So we can't find it to cross front. So I've got to redo my drawing and figure out a way to put a spot tower on a room that didn't want one. But biggest thing for me, I'm finding that I'm doing a lot more early stuff on a handshake and even a lot of tasks that didn't used to fall on the TV shoulders. You could, you could know that if you hired, you know, your AV provider or your, you know, your lighting house or whoever that you were going to, you know, you hire your carpentry team, they're going to send a good team. But now I had so many shows to what Jack was saying at the beginning of 2021, where the crew, you just, you'd show up on show site and be like, I don't know. I'm lucky if I know two guys in the room, you know, two of the techs. And I just got to a point where I find myself doing way more of this labor scheduling than I used to. Well, it doesn't beg to have a lot of confidence when you don't know the crew. It's like a roll of the dice. That is absolutely something to be concerned with. Well, let me shift this conversation and I'm going to throw out, I'm just going to throw out the idea and y'all can just opine. You know, how's trucking working out for you all these days? Is there an abundance of trucks? Has the cost of trucking not been impacted and the quality of service? It's very expensive. It's trucking is expensive because fuel is expensive and it's not so easy to find trucks and drivers. Even trying to, I didn't mean to cut you off, but like the trucking thing is just insane. Even trying to just get 26 foot box trucks and hire a crew member to drive it who's, you know, licensed to do that. A lot of the box truck places don't have trucks. They've rented all their trucks to, you know, Amazon's got them sucked up or UPS is using them and the rental box trucks are just gone. And when, even when you get them, they don't honor, like I had one two days out where they're like, oh, they totaled the truck that was getting returned today. So when we went to pick it up, it was gone. They had crashed that truck and there wasn't another one. You know, Enterprise didn't have another truck in the state that they could swap in and it was, trucking has been insane. And then when you get into the big freight liners, I'm paying three times as much sometimes. Yeah, I would say to just echo what Dave's saying, there have been a few events in the last three or four months that I've done where we actually were looking at budgets and making decisions. And, you know, any project you're always balancing, okay, what's the client budget? How much of that is going to production? How much of that is going to expenses? And then can we fit this in? But we've had to make decisions of maybe not choosing a vendor that we wanted to work with, you know, an equipment supplier and having to go local because the trucking was just way too, you know, high, way too egregious. And it's not like these vendors are charging us crazy prices, just, you know, on a whim. Obviously, their cost, fuel, as you mentioned, Les, the cost of paying drivers, everything is up. So obviously, fuel being the number one driver of that, I think. But it's put me in a situation working with, you know, some of our teams and our clients where we've had to make tough decisions to say, wow, you know, this company would be the perfect fit. They gave us a budget. The budget is perfect on the gear side and their crew. We have the people we want, but it's just not going to work. Now, that hasn't happened on every show. We've managed to factor it into the budget and have that cost absorbed. But that is, yeah, that's a big challenge. And obviously, inflation in general is a big hit on our business. You know, it's interesting. Sometimes you get a freight quote and by the time you actually send the truck, the freight might have changed because there's a very dynamic pricing and that becomes impactful to the budget. Tobin, did you have a thought on freight? I was going to talk about a little bit into just international what we're looking at. Pre-pandemic, I was maybe looking at, for a certain project, a sea container maybe costing five grand to get it from A to B. Now, that same exact container, nothing's changed. It's now 25 grand. I mean, the costs have just increased so much, especially in the international world where you've got to move sea containers around. That was kind of a cheap way to move some stuff around. But now, it might just cost the same amount just to throw a truck on a ferry or something. So, the costs are increased everywhere on the trucking. And plus, I'm looking at quality of drivers has really suffered, I feel like. Our industry, really, we're not going from strictly to warehouse to warehouse. It's going to be more like a warehouse to some weird dock that's in a really tight area that you need a good driver to get that truck into. And when you're sitting on the dock watching this guy who's been trying to back his truck in for the last half an hour, you're just kind of heading hands at that point. You're like, and this guy's probably making more than me too because drivers are so much in demand right now. They can command a really high price. Well, I agree with you on the container business. We purchased a whole bunch of this brand. New graphite led and the containers took 10 weeks to ship from China and they of course, you know, versus air freighting, it was supposed to be a savings, but gosh, darn it. The certainty of a container actually getting on a boat and getting to the destination you want it to, that is, uh, it's, it's not so good right now. So it's not guaranteed. And if you have to deliver a show, it's really hard to command and execute, you know? So, um, I'm going to throw out my next, uh, item and, uh, Guy, feel free to jump in here on this one. Uh, air transportation. So you've got to get your attendees to the show and your crew to the show. Guy, have you had any one of your crew, let's say have a flight cancel, maybe something like that. I hear they're having a lot of cancellations. Yes, we have. We've had crew. I, I've missed the load in, uh, due to air traffic problems, um, not been able to get there and had to have the rest of the crew get it going, uh, and then suffer the ridicule that falls, but, um, the ridicule, you know, Hey, buddy, uh, but you know, the crews were fantastic and covered for it, but it's been everybody, everything we've had clients miss flight. And, uh, one airport, we went into a very small airport in West Virginia for green buyer. We have three clients that couldn't get in and we had to delay rehearsals and all kinds of things. Just the logistics of moving people around has become crazier and crazier. And the pricing is just, what used to be a $500 flight, you know, I paid $1,200 for it. It's, it's crazy. Well, well, Guy, I will say this, Oh, sketchy, Oh, you don't hear the word sketchy very often from a TV. Sketchy. Well, listen, I will tell you this. Sketchy is not good in the TV world. Sketchy is not a good word in the TV world. We like things that we know we have. Very, very, uh, very much defined. I will say this with air transportation, that's out of our control, you know, um, and if you're on a commercial airliner, it's out of your control and thus, you know, it lends yourself to uncertainty of when you're going to get there and all things can be impacted with your crew. I think the idea of having direct flights is probably worth the extra money versus having to make stops because those stops getting off a plane and you have the potential loss of luggage and you have the delays. I was in Austin, Texas yesterday and, uh, just for the day and, um, the Austin airport closed at one point and the Orlando airport where I was going back to close at one point because of weather. I mean, just multiply that to the U.S. and all the cancellations. I think this past weekend I heard some astronomical number of cancellations and you start thinking about our industry is about people gathering and if we can't get a, the crew there to build the show and we can't get the attendees there, we don't really have a show, although we might have a virtual show for those who didn't make it, you know, to watch it. Um, let me throw out another subject. So if I could just jump back to that real quick, we had, well, we were doing site surveys and part of the survey, uh, was can we get the attendees in and out? And we lost two cities just because of that, because we didn't feel that we could get enough air transportation to get everybody there and back. So the lifts from the airplanes, the markets, that impacts the decision? Yes. The airline market, you know, we couldn't get enough planes in there because they've had flights address the problem. Well I don't want to live in one of those places where we do events where there's not a lot of service or people have cut the service to the airline because those venues will just not get used. Okay. Let me throw this out. How has, as TDs, you've had crew people to get there, how have you dealt with the health protocols? Like, um, I'm doing a show next week and I saw like a manual of all these pages of information and how are you approaching that with your crews? I mean, it really depends on the client and the venue for the most part. I mean, you could be doing one show and it is, you know, pre-testing, testing every day, vaccination requirements, a lot of hoops to jump through, obviously masking on site in some areas. And that is the standard for that show where the next week you might roll in and it's, there's nothing, there's, you know, there's no requirements at all. So, you know, I think we all, we all, I think, feel that we have to probably approach everything just by show by show basis. And, um, you know, it's our, we kind of, you know, we're there to do our client's bidding. Uh, and if this is what the protocols have to be, we sometimes have to put on that bad cop hat and, you know, play mask police or whatever we have to do. So I feel it's really show dependent on health protocols these days. Do you all, do you all feel like you might consider staffing an extra position or two just as a insurance policy because somebody tests and all of a sudden COVID and they got to go? Yeah. I mean, well, I've had, you know, let's say you have a small show or you have a, you have a main tent room and then you have a secondary room and maybe, you know, a producer comes to you and says, do we really need an A2 in that room? There's only a couple of mics. And I've been pushing clients to say, you know, the A2 is also an insurance policy. If the A1 test positive or as flight gets canceled, you've got at least someone who could step in and do that. So, yeah, I think, Les, that's something that we've done. Just going back and kind of agreeing with Tobin, it's kind of become very show to show now, the health protocols. Last fall, you know, just going back to that, because that was like the first big, I think, return of like a steady schedule of live events fall of 21, because, you know, vaccines were out and we were getting back to sort of some kind of, you know, pre-normal. Every show I was testing on, every show you had to test before you left, you got on site. Not only did we have to test when we arrived, but all the local crew had to test. So the meeting planners or our production team would bring, you know, 50 test kits on site. And not only with the core show crew, they'd want locals tested. And for the most part, people were willing to do it because I think everyone wanted to get back to work. So there was a lot of like, yeah, no problem, I'll test. And yes, here's my vaccine card. That continued through the, I think, the winter and the spring. But now the last three events I've done, there's been no, I ask, of course, on every show, what are the COVID protocols? Does the venue have any? Does the client want us to test? And with the pharma companies, you see it a little bit more, you know, because let's face it, the pharma clients drive a lot of our business, certainly a big chunk of our shows are taken up by the pharma industry. Even they've kind of cut back on it. I am expecting it to come back. I keep telling people, you know, when cold and flu season hits, and there's probably going to be an uptick in COVID again in the late fall, and certainly in the winter, get ready for possible, you know, testing on site again, testing before you go, masking. So I think we're, we kind of feel like we're past most of the COVID impact. But I think it's going to return in the winter. I don't think you'll see the kind of like cancellations we saw last winter, that that was sort of an overreaction, in my opinion. But yeah, I think, to me, COVID protocols have relaxed for now. And they seem to be, you know, less, you know, demanding. I do think you might see a little bit of return to that in the fall. Well, I should, you're saying I should keep my mask handy. Keep your mask and all your tests. I still have a fair amount of test kits that I keep here at home, because I don't want to, you know, jinx us, knock wood. But I do think that, I think there's a, we're still sort of figuring out how to deal with COVID long term. And while I think it's become, you know, I think in general, as we live our lives, most people are getting used to just, okay, COVID's here. It's like the flu. You can get a booster shot every winter. But I do think there may still be some impacts on our industry for live events. And by that, saying that same thing, I think virtual presenters and maybe some attendees not coming during the cold flu season in the winter, or the COVID season, if we're going to call it that, I think you're going to see that come back a little bit, because I'm not seeing it now at all. I'm not even hearing people talk about it. But I do think that's going to return. So, hey, Dave, I'm throwing this question to you. How has rigging been these days? How is the quality of the teams that you're getting? And do you support the idea of bringing a production rigger to a show site? Because what's your experience been with rigging lately? And I know it hasn't been inexpensive. That part, you don't have to surprise me. I know that part is a no brainer. Right. It's gone through the roof. It's just that, you know, the labor thing in every department becomes a big issue. If you can get, you know, on a crew of six or seven riggers, if you have two good ones right now, I think you're doing pretty good. You know, if you're getting 10, 20% of your rigging crew to be quality riggers that you've seen before, know who they are, who are knowledgeable about what they're doing, and you trust what they're doing without having to watch it all. I think you're really, really fortunate. And I've actually run into one instance where the venue really pushed back on bringing a production rigger outhouse. It had to be an in-house rigger you could pick from their team and list of people they use, but they did not want an outside person came in. And if they were, they wore a white glove, hands off, couldn't touch a piece of gear, couldn't actually do any rigging. They would have only been in the room as a supervisor. But I'm adding, I'm almost doubling my time on rigging calls where I, you know, where if I would have had them come in at 8 a.m. at the Shongogen and DeBoca in a week, I've got them starting at 4 a.m. I'm going to be in there with them at 4 a.m. just to get them in the room and getting stuff laid out just because it's so slow. So you want people to A, show up, be competent and get it done. So when the truck comes in with the lighting to fly out, you kind of have to be at that point or else people are going to be twiddling their thumbs, so to speak. And that's an expensive crew to not get performance and productivity. Exactly. And what we're paying the rigging departments right now, and they go into overtime so fast and they're just sitting around and they're not qualified. Yeah. Rigging is challenging. I would say it's the most egregious element in our whole industry, in my opinion. And under the guise of safety, when people ask me what we do, I tell them we hang big, heavy things over people's heads. OK. Right. So you can't compromise on safety. But I don't believe the approach that a lot of the places that are delivering rigging are really working in the eyes of safety. They're working in the eyes of the economics for profitability and not necessarily safety, in my opinion. Others might disagree. And it depends on whether they're having to pay a big commission or big to the house that they work in or if they're independent rigging company. Next question. The time between the show confirmation and loaded, what would you tell me is the average right now? And I know it's shorter than it was in 2019. I know this, but I just want to know, is it days, hours, weeks, months? Give me a number. Tobin, tell me the number. Two to four months, more or less, is what I'm seeing. Two to four months? Yeah. OK. Jack, what are you seeing? I mean, I've seen it. There's a pretty wide range, honestly. There's definitely more like, OK, this event's happening, hold the dates. And then there's a long wait. And we sort of have a budget in place, but we still don't know the client has signed off on it. I've had as short as four weeks. It's like, OK, now it's approved. And now there's a scramble. Obviously, that's probably the extreme where you're a month out and there's still a waiting period of like, oh, the client says they're going to make the decision tomorrow. And of course, as a TV, I've got vendors screaming at me, Jack, is this happening or not? Because I've got to release crew if not. I've got to release trucks. I've got to book people. Like, you've got to let me know. And I'm, of course, on the other phone asking the producer, let's get on a Zoom call with the client and find out, hey, this is it. This is the deadline day. We can't guarantee the show if you don't make a decision today. But it's definitely more compressed. A lot of them, the one good thing, and you kind of mentioned this earlier, Les, and I think Tobin may have mentioned it also there. I am seeing now, which is a good sign, I have a lot of events, you know, booked through next spring. And, you know, that that was the part I was waiting to come back. Like, because when we first came out of COVID, it was like everything I was getting was like a month, two months out. Hey, I have this thing in March. Well, it's mid-February. So when in March? Well, it's March 28th. You know, like last winter, I was getting a ton of that calls for shows six weeks out. You know, and it's like, hey, the client just approved this. It was going to be virtual. They feel better now. They want to do it live. So there was a lot of that. I do think we're starting to see the longer term planning come back a little bit, which is encouraging. It's, you know, there's still the, you know, oh, my God, I have this event next month. We just booked it. Can you put together a crew for me and a production? But I am starting to see more of the six, eight-month stuff come back a little bit. I think that's an encouraging sign. Yeah. Well, I think there's risk in every show. And a component of risk is the show gets closer to loaded, not having confirmed crew and equipment suppliers and a plan. I think it puts the whole show in jeopardy. And, you know, they say those who, what's the word? There's like a slogan. Those who hesitate are lost. And the idea is you all are the backbone of these shows. The technical director is truly the backbone. And so you have to kind of work miracles on these last minute outcomes when people don't give you the gravity of the information or they are not willing to confirm. So, guys, this is my last question. And while we've talked about all these great challenges of the new normal, this is going to be one that we're going to end on a positive note. We're going to start with Guy. Guy, what are you most excited about as we return to live events? Tell me something. Something positive so we can end this discussion on some good note. What are you most excited about? Well, the most exciting thing is that the people that are there are very engaged in the process and that the crews we do end up working with are very happy to be there. I think the quality of work based on the crews that we have because of the shortage, you know, you're getting some of the, you know, you're getting the top flight folks. And so it's just a better atmosphere to work in. If I could go back and touch on the rigging thing, I've had it all over the map to where, you know, get rigging. I think in the future because of the inavailability of venues, which has become a problem for me lately. I've been on a few things where we couldn't get a venue in time and I didn't even work for the client and their rigging obviously drives that. And I've had it all over the map to where I show up and they don't know what they're doing to where we pulled up and he went to close to the room and the whole rigs hanging in the air when we walked in the room. So I'd say the quality is roughly the same because I try to drill down to get that person who is the leader of Encore, whoever it happens to be, and work directly with them as soon as I know that it's their venue. I do that immediately and just say, what are the problems you face and how can I help you? And that's served me well in the past year and a half. Just getting out ahead of the curve as much as you can on anything. And I think that's going to, in general, that helps the business. If we're all working towards the future and towards a positive result, it forces you to stay on top of your game a little bit more. And maybe that's evolved into a little bit deeper down into the crew so they understand what you're going through and try to get that thing happening on the right day. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So Tobin, tell me the one thing that you're jazzed about that we're back to live. What's the most exciting part other than, you know, share with me your thought. Working with my hands again, I got to say, like the virtual stuff was the intangibility of virtual where you're working with spreadsheets and schedules and a lot of just like kind of in the box, in the computer, but getting back into a ballroom, working with my hands, you know, solving problems, getting back into that, that role of being in the ballroom and stuff like that. That's what I'm most excited about because it's just, I like working with my hands at the end of the day and, you know, I will do the virtual stuff all day long, but in a ballroom in an arena, in some weird, crazy event center, that's where I really want to be. And I'm excited to be there too. Pushing road cases, helping set up scaffolding, touching the gear. Mr. Dave Kundip, would you tell me what you're most excited about us? We're back to doing these live events that we've done for the majority of our working careers. While the virtual shows were successful and, you know, we accomplished the task, they didn't give me the same sense of accomplishment as being in the room when the live audience comes in and the energy you get off that, having successfully done this thing that is affecting a couple thousand people in a room, you know, when that opening video happens and the room just shuts up and stares and you get that response from them that they're totally engaged. The energy you get from that and the sense of accomplishment that I feel, you know, when the show's gone well and the truck doors are finally closing, I've missed that and I'm glad it's been back, coming back. That sounds like applause. Good job. But there is a cathartic feeling when the truck doors close and the ballroom goes back to that empty state you founded in and you've created the show, you've created the message and experience for the audience and it's done and, you know, there's a sense of completion. We've completed the project and especially when they go well and then it's like, okay, we don't really celebrate how great they go because we just move right on to the next one. You know, we don't reflect on our successes as much. Jack Quinn, could you tell me what you are most excited about being back to knowing about shows six months in advance and getting out there and doing what you do? Yeah. I mean, I think just picking up on what everyone else was saying, there's nothing that duplicates the feeling of being in a space, a venue, a theater, a convention center, a big ballroom and taking it from, you know, because as TDs, we see it in its first, in its infancy. We see the rendering that the designer did and then we see the first sketches and then we have to take that and figure it out in CAD and put it all together. And it's a very collaborative process, obviously, working with LDs and audio engineers and designers and scenic set designers. So to kind of get back to that teamwork, you know, that existed in the virtual world, but there was a period in the, during all the virtual meetings, where in every debrief, and this is what encouraged me for the future, is people were afraid that we might stay in the virtual meeting space for a long time. And live events might, if not go away, be very, very limited. Every client on every debrief call I did, meeting planners, you know, even the client executives, the presenters, the people whose business units were putting together the meetings, they all said, my God, next year, I can't wait to get back to live. I'm done with virtual. You know, like this has been effective. We stayed afloat. We got through the pandemic with virtual, but I can't wait to get back to live. And when I kept hearing that, I felt like, you know what, that makes sense. Everybody, there's no replacing the interaction. And whether it's just the interaction we have with each other as production crews, but more importantly, the people we serve, the clients, they miss that. They miss being on stage, hearing the applause, having that opening video roll, and there's that emotion when, or the closing video, you know, or a Candace video, something where they realize, hey, this was a great event. And they, you know, give us handshakes and hugs at the end of it and say, you know, this was such a great process. We loved working with your team. We want to book you guys for next year. That, and again, I'm starting to feel that. It's taken, you know, most of this year, but now I kind of feel, as you said, Les, I'm looking forward to seeing more events booked already for next year. I think it's a positive sign that at the end of the day, people want to be at a live event. And while virtual will remain with us as a component in some way, which is a good thing, I think, I'm excited about the fact that in spite of, you know, a shaky economy, I still think people want to go forward with, you know, let's get to the ballroom. Let's build a stage. Let's have the event. I just want you to, I cannot echo enough of what you just said, Jack, the energy of putting people together, the experience that the audience gets, the networking, the presenters get energy from an audience. And it's good to be back to, you know, that term, the show must go on. And we are all little versions of warriors that have gone through all versions of obstacles to continue to make sure those shows keep happening. And as we go back to live, we all get to go back to doing, and hopefully some of these obstacles that we're dealing with, we'll, let's say, we'll go back to whatever our old normal was in some day in the future. I'm just excited that we're loading trucks and the fall looks really busy and fasten your seatbelt because it's going to be a wild, crazy ride. Everyone. Thank you so much. I want to thank Tobin, Guy, Jack, and Dave. You guys are all amazing. And I look forward to seeing you all in ballrooms, convention centers, venues, unloading trucks, using our hands as Tobin said, and everyone, I look forward to a very promising, prosperous future for all of us in the live event space. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody. Great job. Thank you for having us, Les. Thanks, Les. Thanks very much.