NEGOTIATING WITH VENUES ON THE RETURN OF LIVE EVENTS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today I have three amazing guests. I have David Sonntag. He's the founder of Decibel Event Management. Welcome, David. I have Lauren Chelf and she is the director of meetings at AOAC. And also I have Diane Kovats. She's the CEO of the International Society for Computational Biology. Wow, that's a great title. A lot of a lot of digits. Everybody, welcome to the show. Thanks, Les. Thank you. So today's show is dedicated to the idea that future events are coming back. And with the live event coming back and people starting that process of gathering again, we're going to be talking with venues and we're going to be talking to venues and negotiating with the venues. And all the rules. And the rules are probably slightly different now that we're living in a kind of in a COVID or post-COVID world we're transitioning to. And so today, the topic is really kind of all the things associated with that. And I'm going to throw the first question to Diane. Diane, what's the current climate and what you're dealing with in booking venues for space for future events. And and how is the world looking these days and how receptive are venues? I would think they want your they want your spend and they want you to come. Yeah. It's it's it's definitely interesting how things have changed over the past year. And I think everyone is out there with a very collaborative spirit. And we are they are trying to do their best to work with groups, to work around the parameters, parameters that groups have. I think the biggest challenge right now that a lot of us are facing is just space alone. So the space that you once had that was going to fit a thousand people, 1500 people, now what? Any day could be 300 people, 500 people, 600 people. And when when we're out there negotiating, there's there's this lack of understanding that the rates for that space have to match the number of people that it will currently hold, not the number of people that it once held. So there's and just in all the uncertainty and it changes weekly sometimes. So you'll be negotiating a contract and all of a sudden you'll get a call next week. Well they just pulled us back. So now we can only offer you 300 people for that 1000 person space. So I do think that everyone's trying to be super collaborative in this environment. But with and until we have some type of stabilization, which we're not going to see, at least in the next two quarters, we're it's going to be a continuous dialog, a continuous dialog on the space needs, the rate needs, and the venue and suppliers understanding that we too have stakeholders that we have to report to. And, you know, we have to make, you know, we all want to make a profit at the end of the day. But for a lot of associations, if we can just break even, that's winning for us. So I think it's really still navigating the ever changing situation that, you know, we're we're going to continue to face at least through 2021. So that was a real interesting answer. And there's a lot of variables. David, could you add to that answer and give us your thoughts. You know, in booking space and all the associated issues. Absolutely. And Diane's absolutely right. I mean, we've done events that have pivoted that want to do in person. And we're looking at Florida, which has different rules from Texas, where it's a percentage of what the the fire marshal rules are. So you can have up to 50% in some locations, some have a cap of maybe 25 people. And so it really does vary drastically depending on where you're going. But one of the other things that's that's kind of an X factor that I really like to, to tell folks, when we're talking about rebooking at hotels and venues, is just how extraordinarily grateful the staff is for folks wanting to do events at their property. And so I think that that can't be understated. Folks haven't been working. They haven't had their full complement of staff there. And when we come in and start having these discussions, it is to a person everyone's really excited about being able to have those live events back and being able to have folks in their facility, and when we're booking space, they are actually looking on there and like you said, trying to turn a profit on their end, but they're actually looking at their able to bring staff back in. And so that's another factor that we're looking at is how many events do they have outside of our own events, what their staff complement looks like, and are they fully staffed? Are they partially staffed? And is this a way that they can bring folks back in as well? Interesting. Well, Lauren, give us your thoughts. So far I've heard density of people in the room. I've heard the staffing level and and I completely agree with you. People are so happy to be working. And I will tell you, sometimes people are happy just to be in the, you know, if you're in production and to be around other people doing something that involves production or an event or something. Oh my goodness, we we seem to miss this experience that we've lived for so long. And now it's time we're like, oh my God, we missed that. It's like having something that's like a big piece of chocolate cake that you don't expect, and you're like, oh my God, it's so bad for you. But it's good. So, Lauren, where are your thoughts? Sure. Of course. I agree with everything David and Diane have said. It has been an interesting year. I really noticed the collaboration between hotels and associations and production teams and CVS. It's it's really quite amazing. I just wish that I had a crystal ball that wasn't so murky right now because, yeah, the environment, it's it's crazy. Our association is is wants to meet face to face at the end of August, but the hotel we're supposed to meet and isn't even open right now. So I'm sort of dealing with exhibitors that want to give me money and want to pay for a booth, and and I'm taking it, but I don't even know if the facility is going to be open. And so it's a sort of a huge Jenga. You know, I pull out one piece and the whole thing is falling. We have board of directors that is so tired of being in their own homes that they want their their like, we're going, we're definitely going. And then on the other hand, they're saying, well, we're going, but we'll make a final decision in June in our meetings in August. So it's it's a lot of like Diane said, like every day I have a different answer to the same question. So just a lot of uncertainty, especially for Q3 and Q4 of this year. I mean, I'm hoping 2022 is a different climate, but again, that crystal ball is just not working. So it's just it's really just trying to keep your stakeholders happy, keep your board of directors happy, get people back in the hotel working and you know, all these things at once. So it's just it's very interesting time. So so it sounds like what you all are saying collectively is that we're in the very beginning of a restart, and the restart has to be thoughtful and measured. And, and companies don't know at what level to bring the right staffing level back. They have these jurisdictions that are saying what the density of the event size can be based on their location. And, you know, if your event isn't Chicago or if you're rents in Florida, obviously they're going to be very different. And then, you know, in this post-COVID world, you know, it's all the things you have to do to accommodate people. So they feel safe and they feel like we're you're doing the right things. So I'm throwing this back to Diane. Diane, how has COVID changed the position of the venue? And maybe this question really boils down to the expectations for your attendees to show up, whatever the density and wherever you go. Obviously, if you come to Florida where I'm I'm today, I'm in Florida. Goodness gracious, everything is open in Florida. We are so fortunate to live in Florida for those people who live here. Goodness gracious. I think I've heard some statistic like 1000 people a day are moving here, so I don't know if they're building houses fast enough or apartments or etc. but Florida is definitely on the map. So how has COVID changed the approach in the ballroom, getting people together? What do you think has to happen and in your thoughts? Yeah, I think it's definitely going to be a big education process as we start to emerge back, back to face to face meeting and and gaining trust and confidence with the participants who will be in person at the meeting, and then understanding the safety protocols that will be put in place by the venue, by the event organizers, but also their own responsibility to ensure that they themselves are doing to the best of their ability, all the necessary health scans that need to be done and being truthful about it. There is a huge silver lining with this pandemic, and it really is the cleanliness that things are now becoming. And I'm not saying that we were dirty before, so are you saying that I could use my hotel remote? I don't have to go and spray it down. It's in a plastic bag when I get to the hotel and it's sealed. So I mean. Exactly. I mean, if you think about all those things or we were just like, hey, we're tired. At the end of the day, we're just going to grab it. We now we now have a second thought to it. So it's the the cleanliness that has that is now going into these venues and into the hotels is just amazing. And on top of that, I don't mind when I'm signing off on a contract and reading their safety protocols that I'm being charged that extra little bit, knowing that they're going to be hand sanitizer stations everywhere and that they're going to have greeters with masks if masks are still required in that jurisdiction. I think it creates an environment of comfort and safety that we are going to need. As we we we reemerge and start to meet face to face. I'm starting to get the feeling now what I've heard from you. Some of it, I believe, for an attendee, might be the optics of what they see that might make them feel safe. Whether that truly provide safety or not is is a very subjective question. David. Your thoughts? Absolutely. I think you're absolutely right on that. And I think part of it is going to be what we call communication or coordinated communication, where it used to be your communicating directly with your attendees. You now have to do that in coordination with the venue where you might not have done that before, but you're taking their safety protocols, your agreed upon safety protocols, and then, like you said, demonstrating that all the way down to the attendee. And so it's no longer just kind of a one sided communication. It has to be that open multidirectional communication with everyone. So they're aware of what the expectation is for them. If it is masks all the time, if it is sanitizer, temperature checks, if it is COVID tests, all of that, as long as you know in advance and you communicate that, it really helps that process along. And as you say, demonstrating it from the hotel to the staff to the coordinator, to the attendee is really the way that happens the best. So this question, it's kind of a add on question for you, Lauren. So you get the first question, which was the COVID thing. But Lauren, for your your events, are you going to send or communicate like kind of what David was saying is a COVID strategy for a potential attendee. So they kind of know what to expect when they come on site. And how do you approach that? Absolutely. Well, it's it's such a many tiered process. I mean, first you start with the state level and then within each state county, I mean, where I live, every county is different. So you sort of have to go through state, county, city, venue, plus what your association wants to do, because when you're in a hotel or a convention center, that is, and you've rented that space, that is your space. So even if the building does not require a mask, the association can and you need to communicate that a million times over via your website, all your registration, all your emails and then on site and then and then it comes down to we haven't had to deal with this yet. Who enforces that? The COVID right. There's a there's a new jurisdiction. I think maybe the president will like like Space Force they created they'll call it COVID. They have adorable uniforms. Yes. But yeah. And then it's like and who's who's liable if, God forbid, you know, there's you're a super spreader or I mean, so there's so many things to take into account legal safety. So I think we're all just beginning to learn what we need to do. And and none of us, I don't think, wants to be face to face until we understand how we can keep our staff, our attendees and the facility staff safe. You know, Lauren, you really make a great point. And and I have to admit, I've been I don't want to use the word lazy, but I'll use it. And even though we're on this podcast, I've been a little bit lazy in developing my own language and my own standards, because I'm really hoping that the Events Industry Council and PCMag and MPI and US travel are going to come together and actually put out a document that standardizes some of this so that we can all be operating in some in some sort of a standardization. Yes, we we all have our own legal, we all have our own culture within our organizations. But if there were just a foundation of, okay, here are the five things that we're going to standardize across the board that we should all follow and we adapt it as us. We'll see. The world will follow us because we are world leaders in a lot of elements of business events and the execution of business events. And I'm really hoping then that comes out sooner than later. I know I see is doing an amazing job with their recovery manuals and their working groups, but it will come down to getting that commitment from our participants, signing off and saying yes, I agree to the rules and regulations just as I sign off every day when I go to the gym. Yeah, Diane, I think you're exactly right. We liken it to what our wind action plans are when we have outdoor events with roof grids. With the wind Action Plan, it's approved in advance. It's a set of rubrics of what happens at each wind speed that's measured. So there's no ambiguity on site. You're there if it hits a certain speed, it's all agreed upon that you exit the the structure or you move your crowd out of the way. I think you're right. This national or standardized plan for the events industry needs to happen. So then it's it is the same across, you know, like is it county to county and state to state and event to event. Everybody's going to have their own rules. But I think having our internal one standardized would be a great next step for us. Yeah. We need we need a cheat sheet. That's what I've been calling it. I need someone to create a cheat sheet for us. Well, and type of things that are industry standard. If everyone adopts the industry standard format, then people believe they're meeting that expectation or that goal. And then and then all of a sudden it becomes the that's the bar. And everyone has to kind of match that bar. And we're talking about health and safety and welfare for people gathering. Interesting. Interesting topic. It kind of went into a few different pathways there. So so this is my next question. Back to Diane. Diane, where is the opportunity to negotiate on contracts? Because I'm the hotel of the venue and it's time to negotiate. And let me tell you, every single one you would think would be eager that you're coming back. And what do you think are the opportunities where the hotels or the venues? Because the convention centers, where where are they willing to do this? Yeah, I think rate is probably going to be your best place. Just hotel hotel rate is where I'm finding the easiest area is that is that room rate or is that rate for space room rate room right. Yeah. Not space rate. Well the US so it is very international. So I'll talk US domestic for this. And because the international conversation is very different from US domestic conversation right now. So hotel room rate is definitely where I'm seeing some opportunity to have some reductions in rate because. So we've been in this slump for so long. Any type of rate is a good rate. And when you discuss with them and have them understand, like if you can reduce your rate by $10, that could mean five more people will come to the meeting because hotel rate and the hotel expense is such a large component for that participant traveling. I've had very it's been very hard with internet. There's absolutely no negotiating on internet. Someone had said in a post I read the internet should be equivalent to bathroom usage, so there should be a standardized free internet, just as we like open up bathrooms in a big convention center for the number of people. And I completely agree on that. You know, as we move into this, this hybrid culture, which we will be in for some time as the rest of the world catches up with emerging from this pandemic, there someone has to be the nice guy and work with us on internet. So hotel rates, hotel room rates is where I'm seeing the best. Internet is where I'm seeing the worst negotiations. You know, the internet typically goes through either an internet provider, it's dedicated that does the telecom and a convention center at a hotel, and it sometimes will go through the AV provider. And I can't even remotely imagine how the rates and some of the hotel properties that I've seen correlate to really what internet cost is. There is a multiple of profitability now. So many hotels have been so beat up or so, you know, such a long period of time where their Avi provider has has not had that great opportunity to capitalize on it, but you would think they would want to be a little bit more flexible and to capture business. But the internet is kind of a monopoly unless you're going to bring in your own, you know, what do you call hotspots, and will that provide enough for use or they don't let you bring hotspots in? No hotspots. Oh my goodness. How could they regulate your hotspots? How could they even find them? David your thoughts? Yeah. So I've seen I've seen a little bit different just depending on what your what your event is. So I haven't had any luck with internet negotiations when we have attendees because they see that as a, as a cost leader. But when we're looking at a broadcast facility, if we're doing a virtual event, we need to distance our staff and bring in crew only for an event. I have seen negotiation on internet because we're letting them know, you know, this is what we've got and they're willing to work with us again, that's without attendees. So that might be a little bit of a difference there depending on what type of event it is. And I know at least in the D.C. Convention Center, they kind of got in trouble. Smart city got a little bit of trouble with blocking hotspot, so they actually did block hotspots for a while. They got in some big trouble. So now they can't legally do that anymore. But it's still it is still an expensive item. And we have actually started bringing in a lot of different units just because of the cost you can bring in. The satellites kind of gone away and you're going to end to end bonded cellular at this point. And that's something we bring in as a backup almost every time we actually rent those units. So we have them in our inventory, bonded cellular, especially for virtual presenters that are in the middle of nowhere. And it's got our Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint and an AT&T card. And there I'll put together and somehow at the end of it, you end up with some internet. But it's an interesting conundrum that people have, you know, if you're an exhibit or you probably could bring in a hot spot and, you know, they have those new hotspots, if your location has 5G capable, you can get pretty good service. But I would say the bulk of the attendees are relegated to whatever phone you know, their phone carrier, which is providing them some form of internet. And you know, the yeah, it's funny, you talk about the internet and bathrooms. I'm thinking about if I had a choice between the internet or air conditioning, I would choose the internet because you can live without air conditioning, but you can't live without the internet, right? Oh my goodness. And then, you know, it's we live in this crazy world. Lauren, what are your thoughts on on this, you know, negotiation approach? I am actually seeing the opposite of what Diane said. So I might have to hook up with you later because this is the contrarian view we need to contrary and views on this podcast. Sleeping rooms. What I'm what I've been seeing is that, well, if you think about it, almost everyone canceled in 2020 and almost everyone is canceling in 2021. And what those associations, corporate, what they're all doing is they postponed to 22, 23, 24, 25. So I've been looking ahead to my next available year. First of all, I'm seeing we don't have space. All these thousands of associations and corporations have already taken up space that I was like, oh, I can do that for years out. And then I'm also seeing that the hotels are definitely the drivers now, because they have all this business coming in for future years. I've seen the rates skyrocket as far as as room rates, and I'm super nervous because, you know, our our attendees are not, you know, they're very price point specific. We've been able in the past 15 years to keep our rates relatively low. We also pick like obnoxious times of years to hold our meeting when no one wants to go anywhere. So we've been able to keep them pretty low. And I and we're booked through 2024, and I am fearful of the rate increase that's going to happen between 24 and 25 because of the demand. You know, it's super interesting you say that. So the hotel venues and let's not say hotels, only convention centers and any type of venue, they're trying to make up for that 18 month period where they didn't have many events. So there and with, you know, it's the law, supply and demand. If there's a lot of demand, then the prices go up. And, you know, that could be like gasoline. And if there's no demand, the prices go down. And I think if the event business is slated to come back in a meaningful way, you're absolutely going to have this higher rate demand. So back to you, Diane. You know, are you are you finding any flexibility and and also I want you to address cancellation policy. So what's the COVID cancellation policy. Because, you know, they have to give some kind of thing. I know pre-COVID when this was all happening and people had events, they wouldn't cancel until 30 days out because of force majeure, and they were told nothing can happen so that the cancellation fees were generally obviated. But what are your thoughts on booking something now, and what are your expectations as to what cancellation would look like? Yeah, I so the three contracts that I've negotiated have all been postponements of meetings from 2020, 2021 to future years. And I will say I'm seeing very little flexibility on contract clause changes when it comes to cancellation. And I won't I won't label any one specific country directly, but there I think because of the dramatic loss in revenues that so many have faced, they're being very strict on cancellation. Now. I like to always do a, you know, a little less than a 12 months out for our meeting because it's July meeting and, you know, things can change very quickly. But they're they want 18 months, you know, 18 years, 100%. Now I'm seeing it 18 months out. The world can change in 18 months. Yeah. Year and a half hour that that is exactly that, that this pandemic has got us. Now they'll say to you, oh, well, force majeure, force majeure. But they're also countries out there that it is a federal law that they still charge you a fee for force majeure that the US doesn't have. You know, force majeure just cancels both sides. But in other countries they're still a fee. So very little flexibility on cancellation. You know, I try to wiggle at least only charge me 80% instead of 100% on my feet. You know, eliminate the VAT value added tax to it. Now on the US side, again, I think we just have a the meetings business in the US has a bit stronger a partnership and a collaboration. So you I am seeing a little bit of negotiating in those terms, but don't think that you're changing their COVID clauses in those contracts because it happened. I'd be remiss because we do the lighting and sound and video and Avi and all those components. Have you what have you heard of or felt or experienced in the AV world as far as contracts and cancellations and negotiations other than the the internet you mentioned last, do you think I'm signing a contract until two months out? I mean, come on. Well, no. So so the AV contract, which is the land we live in, is a short term selection process and a decision. So and obviously that is the strategy. And this way you don't have to worry about those kind of issues. So that is actually probably a really good answer for me. David what are your thoughts on this cancellation policy. And maybe are you booking AV three months out, four months out, a week out? You know, we'll take shows a week out. I just want you to know we are not we are beggars can't be choosers. And you guys always deliver. I'll start with the ab question. It's one of the the reasons we have such great partnerships with our with our AV teams. And so from you all to everybody else we work with, we value those partnerships. And so with kind of that we'll call it like the small business banking relationships. You're able to work around clauses with your AV firms. Maybe you pay for some labor that has been booked, but if it's the gear sitting there you're not going to get you're not going to get charged. And that really helps a lot with those relationships. Hotels different story. I think Diane's absolutely right. It's really hard to negotiate those. You're not going to see a lot of that that money coming back. We've been lucky with some hotel brands as opposed to convention centers where if they are closed due to governmental regulations or they're not open for the event, we will get our money back few and far between. I mean, it just kind of really depends on what it is, and it's something you should really be be looking to and and to something that Lauren said earlier. We are really looking at booking based on municipalities. So county city states, we're not booking certain areas because they're quick to to close versus other ones that have a little bit more pro-business. So when we were looking at at one of our one of our events this year, we had the choice between DC, Maryland and Virginia because that's where our broadcast was getting set up. And we chose Virginia just because we had seen DC closing so quickly, even though some rates might have been better in DC and we were incentivized more in DC to come do that, we couldn't guarantee that those properties would stay open based on what we had seen in the municipality. And so that's something we're also looking at outside of the contract as a decision factor. I just want you to know, Ron DeSantis called me today and told me to let all of you know that Florida is completely open. So if you have those decisions to come to Florida because he promised me he wouldn't close it, okay. I just just throwing that out a little little plug for Florida. So Lauren, your thoughts on the, you know, the the cancellation policy and the AV, when do you book your AV contract? Is it I've got two months. I've got, you know, a week. What are you thinking? Well we've worked with a the same AV company for years. So we do have a multi-year contract with them. And when all this started, the pandemic started, you know, obviously we couldn't. Neither side could fulfill their contract. So. But we ended up using them for our virtual platform. So they have been they and other a lot of our other suppliers and vendors have been wonderful to work with. They're just so thankful to to work and to bring people back from furlough that, you know, a lot of these companies, you have these contracts and they're nothing like a hotel contract. I mean, some of my hotel contracts, you know, 25, 30, 40 pages. My AV contract is two pages, and everyone seems to be a little more forgiving in that world. The AV and, you know, our general service contractor, I mean, we just up and canceled that contract with. They didn't charge us for anything. They just said, you know, next time you're face to face and you want us to build your exhibit hall, just remember, we're here and you know, so so it really just depends on what now I have I have not been fortunate enough to have to do a hotel contract, a new hotel contract in the last year. But I have been, you know, I have been seeing what's out there. And like Diane said, I mean, with the hotels and the convention centers, I don't. As far as what I've been reading, you're not going to get an inch. And all those legalese where we had, you know, improbable is now, you know, that that word is gone from force majeure. It's all, you know, impossible or, you know, so and we had great percentages, like if maybe a what was it, 40% of our tendies could not come due to whatever. Then we're released from the contract. Those days are all those are all gone. I gotcha you know, some of the hotel properties we've heard about are trying to make like the breakout component of events for the AV exclusive. Have you all experienced anything like that? I haven't directly with the hotels. It's more like if they have a studio, if the hotel had done a studio or the convention center had done a studio. Sure, only you can only use their in-house in the in the studio space. We we have a number of studios in that exact same configuration. But we have heard in some markets where you're coming in with a general session and they're saying, well, the breakouts have to go to the in-house AV provider. And, and sometimes let's just say the pricing isn't super competitive. And, and you know, and maybe the crew may be great or maybe not so great. And it puts people's, you know, events. It puts them at risk. So I but no one's heard that kind of experience as of yet. Luckily not. I mean I haven't heard it yet, but it's it's not surprising that they try to go that direction. Gotcha. Okay, so this is my final question to bring closure to this podcast. And this is kind of the overarching question. It's when do you all think we're gathering together. And I'm going to give you a criteria of of a 250 person meeting or bigger on a regular reoccurring basis, when are we back in ballrooms, convention centers. And and I gave you the approximate. I'm not I'm not saying 25,000, I'm just saying 250 people or more. We know some of these events are going to go hybrid. And as they go from the, you know, some live attendance and some virtual attendance. So we're going to start with you, Lauren, could you give us a time when are we all going back to work in a meaningful way? We get to see each other in living color three dimensions. Well, I think you know what my answer to me, my answer is going to be Q3, because that's when my meeting is all right. So Q3 would be crystal ball. That would be crystal ball says Q3 July, August, September. Yeah, well maybe not. Let's say let's say August 1st okay. All right. The reason is that I think the July I mean July and August, July and August. Okay. Wait, the president said, I think on the news, I saw that by May 1st, we're all going to have the ability to be vaccinated. Anyone who wants to be, I'm sure there's going to be people that are anti-vaccine. But so. So, Diane, you're going for July and Lauren's going for August. Is this correct? Yes. Sadly, we've already pivoted to a virtual for 2021 because we're I mean, our meeting is 56% international. And we were supposed to be in France. So as they're entering their third shutdown, we we had to we're going to go 100% virtual. I think I like Lauren's guess, I mean, for that size of a meeting, 250 domestic US. I like August, September as as a good target. And do you think it just kind of increases every month as people feel more comfortable? I know what they're doing in Orlando at the Orange County Convention Center. They're videotaping every event so that they can demonstrate to people the safety associated with, if you're going to do an event, look how they did it and look. And, you know, there were no bad experiences post-show. Yeah, I think when when the general public, lawmakers, municipality wise, county wise, state wise realize how much money a face to face person brings to their city, their town, it's a $1.30 for every dollar spent. And we can prove that we professionals who are putting this on. And I'm going to say professionals, because we're not just throwing together mass gatherings at a fire hall somewhere, but professional, professionally produced meetings in a safe environment. The more we can prove to the general public and the lawmakers that we can do this safely, the quicker we're going to get back to having those 200,000, 500, 700, even a thousand people, and hopefully by the end of this year in the US, I'm not so optimistic in other places in the world because their vaccine rollout is just not where we are in the US. Got it. Okay, David, bring us home. Tell us your thought. When are we going back to work? I have two months selected. You can take out of 365 days. We're only going to reflect back on this podcast six months from now. And we're going to go, David was a genius or he was off the mark. What do you think? I'll give you a couple answers. I think one, you'd mentioned hybrid. I don't think hybrids going away. I think that's here to stay. It's been adopted. It'll be hard for anybody that doesn't want to travel to not have that option. So I think you're going to actually see that remain no matter when we get back to these events. So that's something that I would I would absolutely look towards. And then again, domestically, 250 plus, I'm looking at right now for the brands that want to own the market. So if you're willing to travel your event to Florida or Texas or one of the other places that are open, it's happening right now. For anyone else that's looking for those local local events or outside of Florida and Texas, I think Q3, Q4 is a really good, good option. We are solidly booking 21 already, so we are holding dates, we are booking. Everybody is on the books for 21. I think that Q3, Q4 is a great, great thought for one. So so are you going to pick a month because each of the ladies are willing to go on the record and this will be on Apple today. So what you got to go on the record. They just give us a I'm not asking for an hour in a day. I'm going earlier. May. We're already seeing in person. I think it's happening right now. And I think by May it'll the 250 person events will be back. David, I just want you to. I'm going to saint you for picking May because you are the eternal optimist on this call. And and we all hope your crystal ball is, let's say not cloudy and and I, I will tell you from the feedback I and the projects that I'm aware of, I know, you know, there's a term we're going to go from pandemic to pandemonium because our industry in the restart and finding the resources to deliver and execute, you know, it's all about that. I want to thank all three of my guests, David Sonntag, Lauren Chelf and Diane Kovats. You all are amazing. I look forward to seeing you in a ballroom, in a convention center, and a place where we can be gathered and we can do some great, amazing things and put on a great show. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead, everybody. Great job. Thank you. Thanks, Les. Thank you.