THE CHALLENGES WE FACE AS CONCERTS RETURN

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today I have three amazing guests. I have Jackson Gallagher. He's the principal designer of FragmentNine. I have Jonathan Shank, and Jonathan is the CEO of Terrapin Station Entertainment. And I have Craig Mitchell. He is the managing director of LMG Touring and Entertainment. Guys, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having us. Hey, Les. Guys, today we are talking about touring every kind of piece of thoughts around concert touring. I know between the three of you, I would say you have decades of touring experience. And so what I want to know is get your perspective today as we're all kind of going back to work. And so my first question, I'm going to throw it right to Jonathan, is, Jonathan, has the concert touring business changed since since COVID, and are things going to return to normal or are they going to return maybe different? Well, first of all, thanks for having me. And it's always, you know, a great to connect and talk about, you know, moving the ball forward. I think there's going to be a new normal. I don't think anything is going to return to pre-pandemic, you know, standards, certainly from a touring perspective, because I feel like there will be additional protocols. And also just, you know, a philosophy and a mindset even beyond the protocols of how people approach things. Beyond that, I think that it's on us as producers and as as providers of entertainment to the to the masses to help protect our groups of, of, you know, artists and crew and extended families. And I think that, you know, by doing that, by extension, it will help keep others safe. And I think that's kind of the new normal is just taking that that responsibility, as, you know, people that are providing content and entertainment to to the public and providing that service to, you know, do our best to keep ourselves and our, you know, our bubble safe and by extension, keeping others safe. Okay. I'm going to keep everyone safe. Okay. Jackson, what are your thoughts? Are things as the business changed since COVID? Are we returning to normal? The new normal? What are your thoughts now? I think Jonathan's totally right. And as well thanks for having me here too. And it's it's already I think we're already seeing a lot of that new normal. And I mean, I think for us, especially the early projects out of the gate, I mean, any any promoter or artist or manager is taking a risk right now to book a venue and put people in it, especially with the rise of Delta variant. And I think what we're seeing in our world is these approvals and and contract signings, and everything is coming down to the wire as much as possible. Like we've had a couple projects, some have happened. Some have not, that have had less than a month from green light to actually showing up somewhere, which is, which is insane. I mean, normally our timeline is anywhere from three months to a year on average. But on top of that, I think we've seen artists and organizations be kind of pinched for cash over the pandemic, and now rightfully so. They kind of need to make up those gaps that that they've had. And so we're seeing budgets a little lower than we would have seen for the same artist or organization or show pre-pandemic. But at the same time, we have also seen a lot of vendors go under or get purchased or have to sell off gear, and prices are going up like new gear and chip shortages and supply chain. It's hard to get a lot of that stuff in. And a lot of people, especially kind of the operating touring crew type of people, have left the industry to go somewhere else during it. So we have kind of a labor shortage, a gear shortage. And so all of that is coming at a premium at a time when people are wanting to spend less money. So getting bang for the buck is harder than ever coming out of it. But it does seem like we are moving forward. Shows. Shows are happening, which is exciting and great to see and great to be a part of. And I mean, we're just I mean, for the last 18 months we've been rolling with the punches, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. But I think anyone that in this industry is used to rolling with the punches and being creative both visually and logistically, and that's a skill set that will be relying on for months and years to come. I want you to know, Jackson, there was so much there and what you just shared. You, you there's like an encyclopedia of subjects we can talk about. But I from a very high level, it sounds like it's a challenging return loss. Apply and demand who's in business, you know and other talented people to deploy this stuff. Craig Mitchell, same question. Your thoughts. Yeah, I think, you know, Jackson covered it well. But to to dig in a little bit on it, you know, I think the productions are challenged not only with gear but you know, the trucking prices seem to have gone up. You know, that question about venue availability? There's a ton of stuff getting routed right now and getting availability. You know, the Delta variant. I think, you know, if we would have had this conversation 4 or 5 weeks ago, it would have looked like, you know, things were clearing up and blue skies ahead. I think the Delta variant throws some question marks. Do I think the country is going to shut down again? I don't know, but you know, I think there's all these challenges that that everyone's trying to figure out. But the upside is there's tremendous demand out there is what we're seeing. The fans want to go to shows they want to get out. And I think the artist and the management, you know, is seeing an opportunity to get out there and, you know, provide. Got it. Well, let me tell you something. I don't know anyone who doesn't want to go to a show right now. Everyone I know who's playing, how do I get there? How do I get tickets? So that is a good transition point. And this is back to Jonathan. Everyone seems ready to go to experience live entertainment. We've been devout of it. We've we've had our I don't know how many thousands of channels on TV and YouTube and all the mechanisms of digital media. So, so we can experience entertainment, but nothing is the same as being there in person live and having that, you know, the whole energy of putting people together. Will the experience be different? If I'm a fan and I just bought a ticket and I'm going to the show, will I have a different experience or will I be socially distant? Or will something be different? Having to go through the the entrance and the exits and the protocols? What are your thoughts? I think some of those I think some of those things you mentioned are spot on, that there might be some prerequisites or things that have to be adhered to in terms of entrance and exits, etc. but at the core of the experience, I don't believe that that it will be any different people. I believe people will be able to feel the same at a live concert as they felt, you know, prior to the pandemic. And I think there will be a, you know, a kind of great feeling of elation amongst everybody, you know, once they're able to, you know, and even now as they're able to regather, I think it's a really great experience for everybody. And there might be some things, some extra protocols or, you know, apps that people have to to, you know, kind of get green screen or green checks for prior to entering a venue, if that's what is required by the artist. But, you know, for the most part, the show itself, the production itself, I think is going to be honestly even better than ever, because I think people have spent the last 18 months focused on new technologies and pushing the ball forward and, you know, really been given the space to do things that maybe we weren't able to do before because we had so many touring shows all happening at one time. So I actually think that from a production standpoint, ultimately the experience is going to be better. And I think that, you know, everybody from, from, you know, prior to the show, you know, there might be some things that people have to do, but for the most part, I think it's going to be kind of, you know, everybody high fiving and back to enjoying their favorite bands and favorite artists. I think the takeaway I got from your comment was elation, the feeling of elation. I will tell you when I've seen cruise, whether it's a corporate event or a virtual event or broadcast event or entertainment, I've seen the emotion of elation by people going out on site and deploying, and that has been some. It's actually one of the happiest feelings of 2021 for me. So that's my takeaway. Jackson, your thoughts on this? Will the will the fans and experience be different? I mean, just like we were saying before with the new normal in the industry, like, yes, it's absolutely going to be different, but is it going to be different in the in the ways that matter? I think that like so we just opened Usher's new Vegas residency a week ago today. And I mean, there were it was the first time that I had seen an audience really taken a show like that before. I mean, it gave me goosebumps, and it was such a sight to see. I mean, I didn't see anyone that wasn't having an amazing time there. And I feel like in the past, prior to the pandemic, I would often talk about live events and like what it is about live events. That is so fascinating and captivating to me and that that kind of shared experience, this like getting beer spilled on you, all of the this, this very visceral experience when people were trying to be like, oh, let's do a concert in VR and all this stuff. And I think if there is any, any time that virtual concerts would have taken off, it would have been able to see the success of them. It would have been the last 18 months. And I think a lot of people did some really cool work. But at the end of it, we're kind of left with no, people want to go back to live events. There's no there is no replacing that feeling that you get at a live event. And and from what I've seen, from what I've heard, like is it will be different, but in the ways that matter, I think it'll be just as enjoyable, if not more enjoyable than ever. Well, I love that visceral experience. You have another comment, just like Jonathan's. I mean, very, very cool. And by the way, that show I was there last week. Amazing, beautiful. And and I will tell you, sitting in a room with 4700, 100 other people is just like, wow, we're back to doing what we love to do. And I think usher was happy. I think he was as happy as we were. Yeah, yeah, I mean, he he was riding high having a great time. I mean, he had but his heart and soul into that and I'm sure everyone had been afraid of like is it going to happen, is it not. What's going to happen? And just I mean, this roller coaster getting to this huge crescendo, the crescendo. We're coming out. Yeah. Craig Mitchell, share your thoughts on the the experience. Yeah. You know, I think for the fan experience, you know, coming live, I think it's going to be the same. I think maybe the crew experience might be slightly different. You know we're expecting crews be vaccinated. You know I think they're going to have to be a little more cautious on the road, a little more cautious around the artist as we get through the hopefully, what is the tail end of this pandemic, you know, maybe going on for another year or two. But you know, for the, for the end fan, you know, I think it's, it's just going to be an amazing experience and I think they'll appreciate it even more. And I think that there's going to be more opportunity than ever before to see stuff. I think there's going to be a wide variety of stuff going out. So every venues are going to have bookings like every night, because there's so many artists that are trying to tour that will increase demand on gear providers like us and and technical labor, because we're the artists have to try and find a route where they can go hit enough venues in things. Interesting. You know, one of my later questions was the crew vaccination thing. Jonathan, what are your thoughts on that? Craig brought it up. I think we should talk about it now. Is the crew going to have to be vaccinated? Because, you know, I think it's super important to keep a healthy crew. Absolutely. And listen, I think a lot of this is going to be a directed, you know, artist by artist, I would say for for our tours, a lot of them being family entertainment and, you know, you know, kind of with we have a lot of kids that are under 12 that can't be vaccinated at the shows. And, you know, in terms of our crew, yeah, I mean, we want to keep everybody safe. And we would would like for everybody to be vaccinated on our, you know, on our crews to help keep all the families safe at all the shows, because there are going to be unvaccinated children at a lot of these shows, etc.. So I think the short answer is yes. Okay. So, Jonathan, if I come to your if I'm on your crew, I better be vaccinated. That's right. Because it doesn't work for you. Well, I want you to know I got vaccinated many, many months ago, so I'm good, but I don't know if I'd be the best technician today. Okay? I was a technician a long, long time ago. There's always time. Okay. All right. Jackson, your thought on vaccinations for crew? Yeah. I mean, we're kind of off to the side on this. I don't think that's ever a policy decision that we're going to make. But, I mean, honestly, at the end of the day like this, the science is out there amidst the misinformation. Vaccines are safe, vaccines are effective. And in a world in an industry that relies on being around people at its core, that visceral experience, I think there there is there is no other option, period. Especially with children under 12, especially people who have allergies to the vaccine and can't take part of it. Like, sure, someone might not be a total high risk themselves, but I spent most of the pandemic worrying about my mother who lived next door, and like, I wasn't too worried about myself, but I didn't want to give it to her. And like that was the reason I wasn't going out. It was to to protect the other people around me. And sure, if you it is a is a choice to go out on a tour, it is a choice to be vaccinated. But I think they they should go hand in hand because I mean, we've seen we've seen what, 18 months of no shows can do to our industry and we can see what it can do to the mental health of people in our industry. And we've seen what living on no money for so many people in our industry is. And I want to put all of my eggs in the basket that doesn't turn this around and doesn't send us back into that. So yes, yes, yes, even though we will never be in a position to to make that policy ourselves. But I know we are we are fully supportive of it because that at the at the end of the day, like that's what it needs to get our industry and our people and our friends and our family back to work. Got it. Okay, so so I'm moving on and I'm throwing this question to Craig first, but then we'll throw it back to Jonathan and Jackson. What happens to a production member on the crew who who ends up getting COVID? How do you handle that situation, Craig. Because we have to send staff people out on on shows all the time. And, you know, obviously there's a crew and everyone has a position on the show and and someone has to be able to backfill. But what are your thoughts, Craig. Yeah, I mean, it's it's the new normal that we have to deal with. You know, first off, all our tour crews are required to be vaccinated or we can't put them on tour or show site. That's number one. Number two, if someone does get sick, the rest of the crew has to test immediately. If they've had close exposure to the person that got sick, you know, there may be a quarantine period. You know, traditionally there's been times when a crew member has an issue or doesn't work out, and we've had to replace them in short notice. And it's just something we have to be very mindful of going forward. But, you know, it's very difficult to replace an entire tour crew on short notice, which is, you know, why we need this preventive, preventive, it is possible and require vaccinations and, you know, good practices out on the road. Okay. Jackson, what are your thoughts on that? One of your crew members is on the road. You're a big show. I'm not going. We don't have to put names on it and say, and the operator who runs the lights is all of a sudden comes up positive, and I'll even make it better. It has has no symptoms. Healthy. Fine. And I mean, are you doing testing weekly? Are you testing daily? Are you on the bus? Testing? I mean, is there a cleanliness approach? I'm just throwing these little yeah, kind of zingers at you because these are the kind of things that we got to live with. I think this is a gaping hole that most people have not thought about. I mean, when I was working on a TV show and the pandemic first hit, and I remember looking at the the lighting program, I was the video programmer and remember looking at the lighting programmer and were like, like, what happens if one of us gets this, like a lot like some positions are more trainable and replaceable, especially if it's the third person on a crew. And the crew chief can train up another person before we even talk about contact tracing. But like, what happens if one of us goes down? So we were starting to kind of show each other a little bit of our worlds and kind of thinking about this worst case scenario. But then a lot of, I mean, we've done a couple shows, not a lot in the pandemic, and we've had a little bit of contingency planning, but not to the point of like really having a like a second programmer who is never within six feet of the one programmer they could go down. I mean, a lot of times it's not not affordable to to back people up like that. And I think we're shows are going to run into this and they're not going to be prepared for it. And I think the best thing you can do is limit contact, wear masks, like regular testing. I mean, we were working for the NBA, getting tested every day. And like, I mean, even with daily testing, you can have surprises us on another show. We getting tested every four days and had some positive tests and like those people got pulled. Luckily it didn't pull down the show, but I mean, it could very easily like I was trying to figure out, like, all right, how can I log into this media server remotely and program from my hotel room if if stuff goes down? And I mean, I think eventually, like some contingency planning is really going to need to happen and limiting contact. And so people don't get contact tracing quarantined. But yeah, I think this is a problem that we're going to start to deal with as shows get back out on the road. And people do test positive that a lot of shows aren't going to be prepared for. I think this is a conundrum, and I don't think everyone's thought through all the little the nuances of it. And, you know, they live on a bus and it's in close quarters. I think there's one shower and one bathroom on the tour bus, am I correct? Pretty sure if you have a nice bus, you get a shower. Oh, only on a nice bus. But what I'm saying is, if we're all sharing it is an incubator. It's like one step up from those little bacteria cups that you had in garden. Yeah. Yes. I think I think it's going to be some challenges. Jonathan. Your thoughts? Jonathan. This is by far the most interesting topic we've talked about so far today, I think, and one we could talk about for a long time. So a couple things. One is we've seen revivalists and Fu fighters pull down their shows, you know, over the past week because of positive tests within within their crew, band slash crew, I think revivalists actually pulled down their whole tour. Foo fighters pulled down their show at the forum. On the other side of the spectrum, you've got the stones who have a massive crew announcing their tour, and obviously it's a multi-day loading and you know, multi, you know, production. If somebody goes down they can't, you know I mean imagine the repercussions on the Stone show going down. On the flip side of all of that we we are producing the New Deal or No Deal live show that's going out this fall. And we had our shoot a week ago and had 20 models that were coming in for the shoot and had everybody tested prior prior to entering the premises for positive tests came back. And obviously we couldn't pull down the chute because, you know, none of those people knew one another. They were not they were not in the same room. They were just random, random people that had auditioned by tape and, you know, all needed to be tested. And then, you know, prior to coming on premises for the shoot, four of the 20 came back positive. That's a high percentage. That's 20%. That's why that's why I'm bringing it up. This is real time. This was a week ago here here in LA. And what do you do on the day of the shoot when you find out that four of the models test positive and you've got to call for models up because that's your only day of shooting. Green screen. You know, you've got to pivot real quick and you've already figured out the right sizes for these people, for wardrobe and, and everything else. So I think from our standpoint, we all have to really be on our toes. And of course, we did figure it out and we had some alternative models that had negative tests. And, you know, I think that that's how we have to be thinking about these things is, is, you know, we are going to have to, to be flexible and malleable and, and understanding as these things happen and supportive of one another. You know, as an industry, you know, the contingency planning is super important. What is your thought, Craig? Yeah. To add to that, I think for the tour world, it's going to be an additional challenge because on a film set, you know, we've done some Super Bowl shoots at our studio in Vegas, you know, and they locked out locked down those pretty tightly. Everyone's getting tested 48 hours before they show up. There's daily or every other day testing face shields. And you can you can manage it as much as you possibly can. I think once you get on tour and, you know, you could, you know, and I know tours are going out. Some have COVID officers, some don't. Some are testing, some or not. But, you know, once you can test the backstage crew, but at some point they're all together in a venue with about 8000, 10,000 people who are not getting tested coming in the front door. And I think that is the really difficult thing to manage. And I don't know that anyone's quite figured that out yet. You know, it sounds like this is a challenge that everyone's going to have to deal with at some point. And there's economic reality, especially if shows get canceled or postponed. I want to shift this in these questions to Jonathan. Will the artists build the venues with or without social distancing, and will the fans show up? So those are that's my question to you. Will the artists fill the stands? Will they have no social distancing and will the fan throw up? So opine please? I think this is an easy one. I think that yes is is the answer and I think the fans are going to definitely show up. There's just such as you were saying earlier, just such a pent up demand to try to to, you know, find that that, you know, intangible energy that everybody feels at concerts. We've already seen both indoor and outdoor events filled. Look at the NBA finals also and kind of large scale events like that. I think that if arenas are going to be able to be full for sporting events, there's no reason they won't be able to be full for concerts. And I believe the artists will have their own protocols in place. And there's going to be, you know, freedom of choice within a lot of artists decisions in terms of how they want to move forward, when they want to tour, how they want to tour outdoor versus indoor. I mean, look, again, just using someone like the stones as an example. I think if they can do what anyone can do it right, because they're running a very large scale operation, they've certainly got to figure out how to how to maintain their bubble, but they've also got to be in front of 70,000 people every time. So I mean, what what an absolute, you know, you know, kind of unbelievable set of circumstances when you talk about, you know, the dominoes that could be affected in something like that. So my opinion is, you know, we should all be looking to some a production like that as an example and also to, to things like large scale sporting events and how we're going to approach those types of things in the future. But the, the appetites there and, and I think more artists want to tour than ever. So we're excited to to revisit all that. Got it. Jackson, this question to you is, do you think there's going to be an obstacle with labor on touring because there's so many artists that are trying to tour at the same time, and they're only so many tour technicians. And some of them, I think you mentioned before, have left the industry. And so that is a big challenge. Absolutely. I mean, we we're only kind of just now getting to that, the staffing point on some upcoming tours, I think maybe usher was a slightly different model. And I think we're not going to see the issue yet because the people that are there are available, but it's going to be the tours for later in the fall. And I'm sure Craig can speak to this better than I can, that are going to start confirming late later in the process. People are going to be spoken for. I, I have a hunch we're going to have a massive I think we're gonna have a labor problem or gear problem. We're going to have so, so many, many choke points as it comes back to life. And we're not really going to see it for the first 2 or 3 months. But, I mean, I personally know so many people who left the industry and aren't planning on coming back. And I think it's you're going to see that in the highest numbers, kind of at the lower end of experience, because those are the people who probably struggled to find the little one offs and random stuff throughout the pandemic. So yeah, I'm I'm bracing for it and I'm not excited. Not excited. That's the quote of the day from Jackson. Not excited. I'm excited to get back to it. So guys, I want to ask one last question. I think you all have been amazing today is what are you looking to forward to the most of getting back to our new normal? The deploying concert tours, going out and hearing the crowd roar, having the lights go to black and everyone knows that the anticipation of the show and the people are jumping up and down and waiting for that first lighting cue and the first strings, and the artist pops out. I'm starting with Craig, and then I'm going to go to Jonathan. What do you think, Craig? What's the thing you're looking the most item you're looking forward to? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, we started doing shows again and, you know, the excitement is there, but it's really the people, you know, I think anyone in this industry is here because we like to build things. And whether that's structural or build fan bases or build relationships, you know, the touring business runs on relationships, and that's really hard to maintain when we're all separated, locked down in our houses on zoom calls. So to be able to get back in the same room together and work together and have that creative energy as we problem solve through things, that is my favorite part by far. Jonathan, what are you looking to the forward to the most? We're going back to live. We're going to go load trucks and deploy and make some noise and some turn some lights on. Yeah. I mean, for me it's it's kind of simple, a whole industry. Everybody's worked really hard over the last 18 months to kind of build their new toys and create, you know, and maintain and survive. And I think for me, it's just, you know, looking out over the audience as, as people kind of reengage and re-experience, you know, live music and live reconnecting with their favorite artists, characters, whatever that might be, the live experiences where you actually can tangibly do that. There's no other place, and I think so, just making that tangible connection to me. It's as simple as that. Got it. Okay, Jackson, will you bring us home? Tell us what your most excited about. I'll cheat a little bit because I got this last Friday, but I think it's beer and pizza in the production office at the end of the show, because there's something very craft services with pizza and beer. No, no, not even craft services. It's the cooler of beer and the stacks of pizza in the production office, because it's this very cathartic moment. You've had the crowd go wild, you've had you've laid it all out there, you've had this wild thing. And just like, that's not like you said, hi by everyone walking out of the show. And like, for me, that's always like the first breath after a show is is sitting around with the crew. That made it possible, cracking a beer and a and having a slice of pizza and haven't had that that taste in a very long time until last Friday. I just want you to know, Jackson, I look forward to cracking a beer and having a slice of pizza with you. It might be a two in the morning and the trucks are rolling, but it's definitely on my bucket list for sure. I would like to thank Craig Mitchell, Jonathan Shank, and also Jackson Gallagher. You guys are amazing. I appreciate all your insights. We look forward to all the great shows that you guys are going to push out the door and entertain with your artists and the production teams. Hopefully we'll keep everybody safe and we'll go back to doing what we love. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead guys. Great job. Thank you for joining. Thank you. Thank you, Les. Thanks, Les.