THE ELEMENTS OF AN AMAZING VIDEO DIRECTION FOR LIVE EVENTS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today I have two amazing guests. I have Dave Nuckolls, and I have Hal Bassett. Both of these gentlemen I have known for a very, very long time. And they're both in our industry, very well known as great video directors. Their credits would go on for days of all the different types of shows they worked on. And today the podcast is really dedicated to what are the elements of amazing video direction for live events and for broadcast. And I've got just a whole bunch of questions for these guys. So I'm going to throw out the first question to Dave Nuckolls. And Dave, I want you to know, how do you describe your thoughts on the role of the video director? And what's the job? And what do you what's what's that job when it's successful? Well, first of all, thanks a lot for having me on here. I really appreciate it. And it's great to be on with Hal. It's a great topic and a lot of fun to talk about and something that I certainly enjoy. There's nothing that gets my adrenaline flowing higher than when I'm in the hot seat and pulling things together. And that's really what a video director does is it pulls together all of the planning, all of the conversations, all the intent of what what the whole broadcast is, is, is meaning to convey. And through that clear, calm voice finds a way to pull the whole team together to be singularly focused to deliver that product. It's remembering tons and tons and tons of things about, about the goals and the intent, and then conveying that in a quick enough manner that people can react and perform greatly. A broadcast takes so many different people to be successful, and the video director is just one of them. But at that moment, it's that calm, clear voice that that is required. And so it's it's kind of that cohesive person, right, you know, right at the, at the, the key moment of the of when you're actually rolling tape that that is critical. Wow, you said rolling tape. I can't remember when we were last time we rolled tape. I'm old. I'm old. So I'll say all kinds of things. I'm you are just very seasoned. I might reference my I might reference my Rolodex before this is over. So yeah, I'm real question there is what tape were you rolling? Was it a quad machine? Exactly. Yeah, no three quarter inches. So how your thoughts? What is the in your opinion? What is your thoughts on the role of the video director? How do you define it? You know, this is something that you do day in and day out for all kinds of shows, whether they're live broadcast or they're big corporate meetings and events. You know, what, how do you what's your definition or description of, of that role? Well, you know, it's interesting, because much like Dave, and it's great to be with you, Dave. We both have a background in broadcast television. So we've, we've done, you know, what I like to say is TV for TV. And when you get into the corporate world, it's, it's a little different, because, you know, from a production standpoint, and that whole side of the entity, they have a tendency to look at it as the live more, you know, in the room type of show. And so I often find as a video director, having to, you know, I don't want to say battle, but obviously, I just did, but, but essentially, you know, trying to get what I need to do what I think they want. And I, and, and let me, you know, delve into that a little bit. So, you know, obviously, in this day and age with all the webcasts, and, and, you know, the like, and we find that, you know, the bigger audience is not the audience in the room more often than not. And so, you know, I try to stress that upon everyone, that, you know, I'm there to a line that I often use is, you guys make memories, I make history. And it goes kind of back to, you know, the whole roll tape, but whatever the case may be, you know, it gets recorded, it gets, you know, sometimes uploaded to the cloud, whatever, you know, there, there are many of these things that literally live forever. But the part that lives forever, is what I'm, you know, basically tasked to put together and deliver. So that's, that's kind of, you know, the approach. And what I think is the, the angle at which I always come at these nowadays is that, you know, hey, you're at home watching your laptop, or maybe even your phone, you know, what does it look like to you? What do you want to see? And one of the compliments that, you know, I, you know, get from time to time, which, you know, really feels good to hear is, wow, I was watching what you're doing. It was like watching a TV show. You know, I mean, you kind of have to chuckle when you hear that. But at the same time, it's like, oh, okay, well, that's, you know, in for all intents and purposes, that's what I was going for. So interesting. You know, my thoughts are, when you all are sitting on headset, and you're looking at however many cameras and however many graphical sources and video playback solutions that you're having to deal with, or live feeds or remote speakers, I mean, these are a lot of different elements. And, you know, there's a term that is used in aeronautics. I know Dave's a pilot, so he would know this term. I don't know if you know, this situational awareness. So you have to be so acutely aware of what is happening, and the different elements that happen in a live event. And I agree with you, Hal, about the fact that, you know, we've got this remote audience, whether it's the people watching on stream or in remote locations around the world. And we've got that live audience. And we've got to be cognizant of both scenarios, and whether you're doing screen feeds, or you're doing for posterity that people are going to watch in the future. But I really want to hear your thoughts. And I'll throw this to Dave, about how you get timing and situational awareness, and how that connects to storytelling. Because I think that might be the success recipe for the great video directors of the world. You're absolutely right. And I think if there's a mantra or something that video directors should always just keep really front of mind, it is that you're telling a story. I use a simple device, I always think about my mother, would my mom understand what I'm doing right now? Would she get it? Does she need another wide shot to understand the perspective of where people are? Did I leave that shot up long enough to let it tell that particular moment or that part of the story that she understands why I even went to that shot? Is it too long? It's like, all right, we get it. So storytelling is so important. And from the very beginning of a project, that's kind of what I'm really trying to put in my mind is, what is the story that we're trying to tell? And like you say, timing is so critical there. How much do you need in the exposition part where we're setting things up versus the actual content versus summing things up? And as Hal referenced, depending on whether you're in a ballroom or if it's a live broadcast or a sporting event or whatever, the story that you're telling is very different. But that is so paramount. You've got to think about it through the eyes of the viewer. Do they get the story that you're trying to tell? When I was in broadcasting school about 700 years ago, one of the things they talked about with sporting events is the back of the bar effect. If you can't hear what's going on, do the visuals help you to understand what's going on? Do we need more graphics? Do we need more lower thirds? Do we need more, you know, locators or like I said, wide shots or things like that, just to have it make sense. So storytelling is probably, well, arguably the most important thing I think when you're a successful video director. Hal, your thoughts and I want you to respond to the storytelling and the timing thing, because I know in live events, timing is everything. So what are your thoughts? Well, it's just like comedy, right? You know, it's all about timing when it comes right down to it. You know, and again, there's where a bit of a struggle happens, again, between the live versus the, you know, video portion of it. You know, what I find is, you know, we think about, you know, the shows that we do kind of follow, to a certain degree, events that we see on television, you know, whether it be, you know, award shows, primarily, you know, sometimes we do shows that, you know, fall into the, you know, game show type of situation, and then, finally, we're kind of doing the news type of thing where, you know, they're interviewing a guest sitting around a table, you know, fireside chat, that sort of thing, you know, all things that people see all the time at home. And so, you know, to a certain degree, you want to mimic that, because that's everyone's mindset in terms of how they are used to seeing things. So, you know, for example, if you're doing a Yes, you can shoot the moderator. And yes, you can shoot the person answering the question. But sometimes it's just important to see the reaction of other people, you know, which is a silent reaction, you know, they're not interrupting at that point, although sometimes that does happen, and you want to try and capture that. But, you know, the role of the eyes or the nod of the head, or, you know, that sort of thing, it's all part of, you know, what's going on there. And of course, as a live audience, you can see that directly, as you know, a director and knowing that you're sending that out, you know, to people via video, you know, they only see what you let them see, type of thing, you know, and sometimes there are moments where you try to hide things, you know, for whatever reason, you know, let's say, for example, you just did the panel, they've got four stools out there, they're taking the stools off the stage. Now everyone in the audience is seeing that happen while somebody's talking. I don't want anybody to see that. I'm also a real stickler for, I don't want to see another camera in one of my shots. And if I do see the other camera, I damn well better, excuse me, I better see that shot pretty close thereafter. You know, otherwise, why is that guy there, or in the way, so to speak, you know, but to go back real quick to the whole, you know, analogous of, you know, broadcast versus the show, it's like, you know, when you're doing awards, or a lot of, you know, interchanges of entrances, and that sort of thing, it's always difficult to get them to do it from a, from a video timing thing. So one person will say something and leave or a video will end. And the other, the next segment, the next part that's about to happen is somebody's entrance, but they won't send them early enough. It's like, okay, so now where, where do I go? How do I cover that, you know, void, so to speak. So, you know, and there are ways around that, too. So interesting. Okay, well, let me move on to this idea that we're going to do a show. And someone called and said, how Dave, we want to book you for the show. What's your process to, you know, to ultimately be successful? So Dave, why don't you give us some pre-production things that you need to know? And what are the critical paths to success? Yeah, it's, that's a great question. And so important on every project, actually, is to really understand, you know, what are the goals? I always, Stephen Covey always said, begin with the end in mind. And I always ask that question. It's like, when this project is over, what is going to have you did a hell of a good job? That was awesome. What is it that's going to get us to that point? I do a ton of homework, I need to know the client, I need to know what's worked for them in the past, what has not worked for them in the past? What are things that they just really get excited about? And what are things that they just don't want to see? So it's really understanding what the task is, and just interviewing and questioning to ad nauseum, what the intent of that project is, I did a show last year, for TikTok, it was the the red carpet before the Oscars, it was a three hour live show. And the goal of that show was very different than doing something in a ballroom or doing something at the Olympics or doing something, you know, different different places. And so it's understanding, you know, what does that audience want? What is what's going to make us successful here? What's going to keep the people viewing it, viewing it, you know, what's gonna, what's going to turn them off, or what's going to compel them to want to watch more. So it's just really doing the homework and understanding the intent and why they called you in the first place. But but just knowing what it is in their eyes in the client's eyes, what it is that's going to going to have them say it was a successful effort in the end. How Dave brought up this idea of I mean, it sounded like engagement, how do you increase engagement? And obviously, how what is your approach to starting a project and bringing it to success? Well, the first thing that I always say is, there's no such thing as TMI, you know, too much information, send me everything and anything, I'll determine whether or not I really have to look at it deeply. But I'd hate to, you know, show up on site, because by the time you show up on site, you've already done half your job. And I wouldn't want to be missing a piece of information or learn about it on site and say, Well, that would have been nice to know two weeks ago, a month ago, whatever the, you know, timeline is. And and, you know, then I get into the minutiae, it's like, okay, what have they done in the past, meaning the client, if they've done that show before, or something similar? And what do they like? Because, you know, nowadays, there's the, again, and I harken back to, you know, what everybody sees on television. And so sort of the, you know, the, the news type of format where there's boxes of people and that sort of thing, you know, do you want a box where you see the person and you also see the graphic? You know, are there graphics that you're going to want full screen? And then that brings me to, okay, things like, all right, what's the format of the show? Is everything 16:9, which lends itself to, you know, matching it all up and making it a, you know, full frame broadcast, or are your graphics on such a, you know, aspect or shape size screen, that they're not going to work as a as a direct source, and there is no, you know, separate stream of them that that is 16, nine, although sometimes that is the case. So, you know, you got to get all the information of how they're playing. And unfortunately, sometimes, you know, when when Dave and I get contacted, you know, and I'm sure he could attest to this, they're already a little far down the road, in my opinion, it's like, you know, I wish you would have talked to me before you made this, this and this decision. You know, oftentimes, the set and the layout of the room are already done, they've already even picked camera positions. And that's, you know, sometimes that's where they would go out of necessity anyway. Not always do they go where I would put them. And oftentimes, where they currently are, when they come to me are not where they end up being by the time we actually get there doing the show. Or the configuration of the cameras, you know, especially cameras, a lot of times, too, you know, it's like, Oh, well, we got you this, we got you that. And I say to him, well, why do you have, for example, why do you have a steadicam? And they tell me and I say, well, that's not what you use a steadicam for, you know, so there are decisions that sometimes, you know, you'd like to be a part of that have already, you know, been made either because, well, that's how we did it last year. You know, and then I always think to myself, well, who was the director last year? And why is that person not back? It's interesting what you said, it really makes me begs me to the thought of, you know, a lot of departments have some pre production. And to be a successful video director, you got to have a little bit of production, you got to know your gig, and what they're trying to achieve. You know, I think about when you brought up the idea of sometimes the aspect ratio of what we're shooting isn't the same. I have seen a lot of these very tall vertical screens, where they're basically cutting off left and right. And in you're shooting it, so that it looks great on the screens and a live audience, but it wouldn't look so great on a broadcast. I was gonna say I can speak to that, because I just had a show this past October, that was exactly that, where they had the big portrait screens. And I said, well, that's all well and good when we have a single speaker out there. But what are you going to do when, as I know, you have a four person panel, or even for that matter, when you have an interaction with two people, especially when the interaction is conversational, and there's a lot of, you know, interjecting, two or three word answers, or, you know, hey, did you like that? Well, yeah, it was great. Well, you know, can you cut the individual back and forth? Sure, you can. But ideally, you'd like to take that two shot every now and then, and it's not formatted with a screen that's, you know, possibly nine by sixteen, or even thinner, you know. And so, in that particular show, they said, well, can you do just the singles? And I said, well, certainly I can, I have the cameras, and I will cut it that way. But you're not going to like what you have to work with from a record standpoint. Because essentially, in order to frame that, you know, we center up the individual on each camera. Well, that means you have a half a person in each of the other of the full frame, you don't see that on the screen. But in ISOing the cameras, or, you know, wanting to put something together down the road, you have nothing to work with. Oh, absolutely. I totally agree with you. Dave, did you have a thought on this? I did. I referenced, excuse me, I referenced the TikTok show. And I just wanted to mention that that was really an interesting set of circumstances I had not dealt with before to that level. When you think about a red carpet, a rival show, it begs to be horizontal. It is, it's, you want to see people arriving and walking and, you know, my phone is vertical. Exactly. And so you really have to think that through. And that was hard. And I'll tell you, it was hard for the client, too. They would see I remember one particular time the rock had arrived. And they're like, look, and they pointed to one of my preview monitors. And they said, let's, you know, let's go to that shot. And then I pointed to the monitor that we had taped off in a vertical format and showed them that he wasn't anywhere near the center of my shot, nor could the camera person get a good shot to make it to make it so. So yeah, thinking through a vertical show is very, very different. But it's important to think about that these days, because as you just held up your phone to us, that's what people are watching. That's where people are consuming their information these days. Everything is video. And so much of it is vertical video. And what was interesting, too, is we also rolled tape on the horizontal aspect ratio of everything because there's other ways that things live on beyond the actual broadcast oftentimes. And so we had to be mindful of that, too. And so we recorded it a couple of different ways. But that vertical, that's a whole new thing. And it's important to think through how you're going to still tell that great story in that fashion. It's interesting because Hal mentioned that if you do that, you may have to tell a great story, but your post videos may not have such beautiful images because they're in a 16 by 9 world living in a vertical world of something different. So I want to switch gears and throw this question to Hal. Hal, I want to know, how important is it for the camera people and for you to jive with the camera people and you figure out the camera people and their abilities and how you're dealing with it? Because you still have to deliver the show. And whether it's super competent people and super experienced or, let's say, less experienced people, how do you deal with that? How do you get the best out of those people? And do you figure out what their limitations are or what's your strategy for something like that? Well, here's what I start with. So in that initial conversation that I have when I'm first invited onto a show, we'll say one of the things I do ask is, can I bring some camera guys? Can I put some guys on hold? Because I have a set of guys that I've worked with for years and years. And the most important part in that is not just that they're good friends of mine, but more importantly, there's this shorthand. So we've worked together long enough that they almost know what I want before I want it, which is always nice. But I can say like this or like that or do that. And I also know what I have to ask for to get what I'm looking for from those particular people. So I always try and do that first and foremost, because there are so many other things that are going on within the show that you don't want to have to hold somebody's hand. And that's the other end of the spectrum. There are situations that you get into, more often than not, it's because it's dictated by a union where you can't bring people in, because the budget won't allow it. Because there have been times where we still bring people in, but then basically there are other people sitting on a chair getting paid to do nothing, because that's quote unquote, the job that we've taken away by bringing someone in. In any case, those people, it is a lot more stressful when the simple things don't happen, when you have to talk them into framing and then every time talk them into frame. It's like, when you determine what the headroom should be on a shot and you explain that to them and you go, that's perfect right there, you would think that they would understand that's how you always want it. But then they revert right back to, when you look away, they revert right back the next time to the same shot that you just talked them out of. And if you find that they can't do some things, like they can't move quickly from point A to point B or whatever, you just have to come to the realization that you don't get to do your show at the level you want to do it, because it will only make it look worse. You have to dumb it down, you have to take and work with what you've got to work with and make the most of it. There's many a time that I can make a three camera show look like a five camera show and go beyond that, but that's because I have my three guys. I actually did a two camera show with just one operator and one camera was locked off. So he wasn't jumping from camera to camera, although we changed the framing of the locked off camera from session to session. So in the course of doing this, it was all going to a central location and being fed out from there. And there were a half a dozen rooms doing exactly what I was doing. Well, two people came into the room and said, I just wanted to see what you were doing in here. And I said, why is that? And they go, well, I can't believe you only have one camera operator. And the reason was, in part, because it was a camera operator that I specifically requested. You know, so the ability level and knowing that I can get what I can get out of that particular individual is great. And if you have to, and you will learn during rehearsal, what you can get out of somebody you haven't worked with before, and you can only hope that you can get at least what I consider, you know, the baseline, you know, out of them, you know, framing, you know, smooth focus. You know, yeah, I mean, you know, nothing's worse than taking a shot and having them push in and it just goes out of focus. And then you say, you're out of focus as if they can't tell that, you know, because they're not doing anything about it. And then they roll through it and back and, you know, or the worst is they zoom all the way in and check their focus and then zoom back out. You know, we can only hope that back focus was done properly. I hope we're not getting too technical with some of these terms for the general. One of the requirements, Hal, is that the operators be able to see really clearly, whether they wear glasses, contacts, or if they can't see, this focus thing would really just drive me nuts. Dave, do you have any thoughts about what you do to get that crew and understand their limitations or their great experience level, you know, different than Hal's thoughts? I'm not different than Hal's thought. I think Hal's thought, he had some really good thoughts there and nailed most of it. I just had a couple of just personal stories where I can't tell you the number of times I've shown up and had a crew that, of course, I've never met. I don't know anything about their abilities. And that actually is probably more common than not, you know, such as they are. Hal's right. If you can take your guys, your guys and gals with you, that's ideal, but that doesn't happen nearly as much as you want. Maybe on the really big shows, you'll be fortunate to have some of your ringers with you. But what I like to do is just have that first camera meeting and sit and talk to everybody and look them in the eye and ask them a little bit about what they've done, see if I'm scaring them with the task at hand. I love it when somebody makes some sort of a recommendation about somebody else. It's like, oh, you've got him on your crew, you'll love him. He's awesome. And then it's just a matter of getting them in their spots and going through it. Nothing's worse if you're doing dissolves, for example, maybe in a musical number and they pull cameras before you clear them or focus is how mentioned is just huge. And so you learn, you know, you take those mental notes and you say, OK, I'm not using that shot again. And I have moved people. I've had people on handheld cameras that just aren't steady. They just didn't get it. Move them back to the pedestal camera. And that guy that said, I can do that, you know, put him on the on the handheld and make that change. So it's just a matter of, you know, asking the questions, but then seeing how they do and then trusting. And then that's where the skill of the video director comes into is being really sure you're over communicating what you're looking for. So it's very clear what you're hoping to get out of that shot so that it just helps them to relax and deliver to the best of their ability. One other thing, let me just dovetail onto that is, you know, the other issue that you run into when you work with more often than not, when you work with people you you either haven't worked with before or very seldom have worked with is is them understanding. I mean, I'm I'm, you know, really good about saying this is what's going to happen next. Or if this happens, here's what you do. Here's what you do. Here's what you do, you know, so that it doesn't come as a big surprise to everybody. And, you know, having done this, you know, for as long as I have, and knowing human nature as a result, you pretty much know what's going to happen. It's like, okay, well, they're going to they're getting to the end, they're going to stand up. And I found that sometimes, that's enough to tell somebody that. But I found other times that I've had to tell other camera guys, all right, widen out tilt up. Yeah, don't worry, I'll take the shot once they stand, you know, type of thing. So got it. So So this is my kind of like my final kind of two part question. My grandfather today first, where do you learn to be a great video director? And then the second part of the question is, what's the most fun thing about being a video director? And what keeps you doing it? Oh, boy. Okay. Where you learn, sadly, is probably just doing it. It's having the passion and the desire to learn and you just got to do it. I learned in a ballroom, very small convention, where we refer to it as IMAG image magnification, where it is just one, two, maybe three cameras. And your intent is just to have a screen next to the stage that the image looks bigger than what the person on the stage looks like to the human eye. So you're just magnifying what's going on. And then you start getting a little bit more creative. And then you start realizing that you kind of telling a story. Story and that that person in the back of the room, do they get it? Do they not? You know, am I doing too many wide shots where it's wider on the screen that it is, you know, to the human eye? So it's just a matter of doing it and practicing and and and getting better as you go. What keeps me doing it is that adrenaline rush. It is that that feeling after the show of knowing that you told a great story and that people did understand what it is that that you were trying to convey. A couple of tips that I want to just throw out that I'd written down that I just want to put in somewhere. So I guess this is the spot is one of the things is you mentioned aviation earlier. One thing that we situational awareness. Yeah, situational awareness. Another saying that we say is we fly ahead of the airplane. First time you hear that, that seems a little silly. It's like, no, I'll stay in the seat. Thank you very much. But the notion is things are coming at you and you need to be prepared for that. So you have a plan and then you have what I'd like to refer to as the oh, no plan. I might say a different word there, but the oh, no plan. And so it's a matter of thinking ahead. What's going to happen next? What are all the things that could happen next? You know, somebody might not come on stage as soon as they're supposed to. Well, I got to cover that. Somebody might, you know, make a mistake or talk too long or talk too short. And so you've always got to have that go to plan that you can cover. You've always got to have a we call it a bail shot, you know, whether it's a logo slide or a video that you can talk to or something that you can always rely to be there waiting for you should you need that. So it's thinking through things like that and having that that oh, no plan flying ahead of the airplane. And at the end of the show, when you when all those things come together and you get that pat on the back and they said that was a really, really great show. That's what keeps me doing this. That sounds interesting. I think of that. Oh, no. Graphic as the one that says technical difficulties will be back shortly. How would you maybe share with us? Was that the Indian? I don't know. It could have been. Yes. So how maybe you could tell us, you know, where did you learn to be a great video director and and what's the most fun thing about doing it and keeps you doing it in this industry, as Dave shared? Well, in terms of learning, I mean, my path was I started doing sports and broadcast and I actually for the most part, all of that is done out of a, you know, a truck. And I actually worked my way through the truck. I started in the back of the truck doing slow motion, instant replay for, you know, all sorts of different sporting events and then moved to being the TD, which in the broadcast industry is a different title than in the we'll call it the ballroom industry. You know, the TV in the ballroom basically oversees everything and and that sort of thing. The TV and in broadcast is actually literally basically pushing the buttons on the switcher for the director. You know, oftentimes now the ballroom, that position is combined a budgetary constraint, I'm sure, but for the most part on the bigger shows, it is still two individuals. So when you sit next to a director for years and I did that in sports and I did that in entertainment, you know, I worked on entertainment tonight. I've worked on sitcoms. So, you know, and various other shows, you know, it's funny because, you know, I did. You know, just about everything and anything, you know, in terms of, you know, the genres, as they say, you know, whether it be a game show, a news type show, like I said, a sitcom, you know, all those sort of things. And I also worked at a posthouse and did editing for, you know, a chunk of years in there, too. So, you know, having the knowledge of what people might need after the fact. So, hey, I'm shooting this, but we're ISOing things, you know, because all that's important right now is the IMAG show and what people see on the screen and maybe it's vertical screen. But somebody is going to take all this and try and put it all together for, you know, repurposing it down the road. So, you know, having all those experiences and being able to pull from all of those, you know, allowed me to basically move one seat over and, you know, I did sports and entertainment also as the director and then, you know, actually stumbled into this, as I like to say, they didn't build those ballrooms just to have weddings every Saturday. They sure didn't. They sure didn't. In fact, far from it. You know, it's like I don't think they do wedding receptions in a lot of these hotels. I mean, I'm sure they still do. But, you know, it seems like you would think that I would see that sort of thing. And I never seem to when we're in there, you know, setting up Friday through, you know, Sunday to get ready for rehearsals on Monday for a show on Wednesday. Well, I like the enthusiasm that both of you guys bring to the role of being an amazing video director. It's, you know, what Dave mentioned is the high you get after the postcon with a client. You told a great story how you talked about either bringing in your people as far as the camera folks and also being able to do pre-production and get the timing right. You guys talked about and trying to get that shot. The oh, no shot. I think Dave called it. And I appreciate both of you guys joining us today. I think you guys are a gift. If someone lets you be their video director, I think you guys put out some amazing story telling that doesn't exist. And I think as Hal said, it's what the history, what they're going to remember from the event is what comes through the communication that you have through the eyes of the video director. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody, great job. Thank you so much.