THE ESSENTIAL ROLE OF LED TECHNOLOGY IN TODAY'S WORLD

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have four amazing guests. I have Doug Murray. He's the managing partner of ETP. I have Sean Borowski. He's the executive vice president of LMG Systems Innovation, an ETP company. I have Jason Barak. He's the executive vice president of Global Accounts for Unilumin. And I have Dave Luchsinger. He is the director of LED for LMG. Everybody, welcome to the show, and thank you for joining me today. This is a pre-Fourth of July weekend, so we're celebrating the birth of our country and fireworks, but no great celebration would be possible if we didn't have LED. And so today's subject matter is all about LED, the evolution of LED, and why is LED such a pivotal element in everything we do nowadays, whether we're doing an installation, whether we're doing a rock concert, whether we're doing a corporate meeting or event. LED is something that's become essential. So I want to hear from you all, and I'm going to start with Doug. Doug, could you share with me, why has LED become so popular, and what is it about it that the adoption rate has really overwhelmed other technologies? It's the new audio, Les. It's the new audio. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I try to explain. I've had this question before, and people, I'd liken it to when audio amplification arrived on the campaign trail back in, somebody give me a date, I don't know, 1920? A long time ago. Yeah, a long time ago. And I'm sure it was viewed as a luxury, like, hey, we can, the back row can hear you now. And then eventually, it became just part of the program. You had to have audio amplification because it was a better communication tool. And the video is the same thing. If you're in a crowd, or you have an audience situation, you can see the talent or the subject matter on stage. You can see their facial expressions. You can see their eye twitch. And you can also run playback video, which obviously is just a whole other form of communication. So it's just a better system. Well, I will tell you, in any live event, what we're doing is helping people tell stories. And if you get a much closer, larger view of that person in a high ambient environment, that's a big deal. I'm going to throw the same question to Jason. Jason Barak, what are your thoughts? Why has LED become so essential? Thanks for having me today, Les. 78 episodes. So cool. So cool. You know, regarding LED, you know, when I first started in LED back in 1996, you know, we're dealing with red monochrome, amber monochrome displays, and the technology wasn't as affordable as it is today. And so the adaption of LED into so many facets of our life, whether it's in sports, entertainment, corporate environments, Times Square, Town Square, LED has that panache to it. It has that brightness that just pops. It's truly that shiny new object. LCDs become so blasé, people have them in their homes. And when you see LED, it just pops. It's one of those exciting technologies that just grabs your attention immediately. And so no matter what application you're applying to, it's something people aren't used to seeing. So their eyes gravitate towards it. And to your point, it tells a story, tells a story in a way that people have never seen before. So the excitement, the largeness of it in a concert, a stadium, an arena, it's just an exciting new technology that I thought 20 years ago was in its infancy. And even today, the adoption rate of and the exponential growth that we're seeing is just phenomenal. Dave Luchsinger, your thoughts, and I know you have many concert tours out, as Jason was mentioning. So give us your thoughts about why LED has become so essential. You know, probably the easiest thing to say is ambient light. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to worry about, you know, the lighting designer can do whatever they want to do on a tour, on a corporate event. You don't have to worry about anything getting in front of a projection cone or anything like that. That is probably the biggest reason why LED has been adopted like that. Power consumption, you know, apples to oranges kind of a little bit with projection. But to get the same brightness out of a projector, you're going to need a lot of to be able to, you know, to do that, that that power. And, you know, it's just it's just a much cleaner look when it comes down to it. You know, there's a lot less stuff to worry about. I would tell you that it's very hard to compete with the sun for a projector, but LED is definitely making it a good college try in some environments. Sean, your thoughts. And I know, Sean, you deal with, you know, putting it in environments permanently. And I know we've put in probably tens of thousands of tiles for installs. But what are your thoughts about why LED is so popular? Absolutely. You know, when we're talking about AV integrated spaces and corporate messaging and internal event spaces, I echo it's tough to come after all of these legends in the industry. There's the reality to the high light output, the low power utilization, the low form factor to be able to do messaging and be, you know, centimeters or inches off of the wall without having to have the obstruction of projection cones when we're trying to provide impactful corporate messaging or instructions or wayfinding. It is able to get into places that former display technologies just weren't when we think about the traditional television or computer display. They only got so small. They only got so big. When we tried to put them together into clusters, you were dealing with a lot of negative space and a lot of bezels and edges. And, you know, with the evolution of direct view LED, those things are of the past. When we talk about curves and unique shapes, we're able to do that with these light emitting diodes. And so the flexibility is key. You know, it's been over 25 years now since most of us were introduced to utilizing direct view LED in outdoor digital signage, you know, driving down the highway or walking through Times Square. And so we've now become accustomed to it. But to your point, Les, it's a challenge to compete with the sun. And this is the first display technology that really has given it a good run for the money. Got it. Well, it's interesting. I think any listener may have either seen pictures or walked in Times Square. It is undeniable that LED is probably the most powerful thing to help deliver messages. And I'm sure the advertisers that are paying for those messages are paying big bucks and they're strategically and, you know, you can't walk through Times Square without seeing 100 LED screens. I throw this question to Doug. Doug, take me back in the way back machine from the beginning of LED. And how is it different from maybe when you started touching it and going out and deploying it than it is today? Because obviously there's been a lot of advancements. But take me back to what your original LED and I'm sure it was amazing back then, too. Yeah, the most obvious difference is the way that the LED is packaged. When I first arrived into the industry, it was discrete VIP where we have. So the lamps, just so everybody knows, the discrete are actually a lamp. It's a diode. Yeah. So you had a red and a green and a blue bulb, for lack of a better term, diode that was mounted on a board. And to some extent, I'm still in love with it because it's so darn durable. But it seems to be have passed over and we've moved on to SMD, which is surface mount diode. And then we're into a whole bunch of other technologies now. But the main difference is the brightness, the viewing angles, the durability, the weather protection. Yeah. And also the form factor, the mechanics that the screen is built around. Those things were heavy. I was just cleaning out a warehouse a few weeks ago and I found a case with two brand new Lighthouse R7 panels. And they were, I think they're 124 pounds each. Man, it was a nice product. I still kind of yearn for that sort of durability on the board itself. You know, it sounds like you're in the way back clock, your reflections on how they built it to last. And I think they used acronyms like Jumbotron. I think that was a good acronym that everyone kept. And they kept saying that even though Jumbotron has been gone for 25 years. Jason, your thoughts on this and the way back clock of how LED started and how that has changed. No, couldn't agree more. And going back when I first arrived in Times Square in 1999, there was one screen and it was a Jumbotron. It was the old CRT technology and then NASDAQ. And it started to multiply from there. Now to your point over 100 screens, but those old screens with that DIP technology, always liking it to a light bright, as we all saw as kids, those little lights, that's what it looks like. But back then, I mean, 25 millimeter, wow, that was super high resolution. And then even back then, I worked on a project for ABC Studios and they couldn't afford to do everything RGB. So a lot of stuff back then was just red, green. And I still remember also back then in 98, 99, a blue diode was like a dollar, $2 and Nietzsche was the be all and end all. And now we've got multitude of LED manufacturers. And then also the evolution to go from DIP, again, to SMD, first steps to SMDs in the early 2000s, only interior, and then started to see some outdoor SMDs in 2008, 2010. But to your point, the durability. So the evolution going from the DIP is 25, 50 millimeter to now sub one millimeter. It's just absolutely amazing. And I'm excited to see where we go next. Interesting. This next question is to David. And David, this question is people talk about LED and they use the term batches and maybe you could opine on what does that mean? And how is that an obstacle or just so the audience really understands? So batches refers to the run of actual LED pixels. So the actual diodes. While they're building the batches, all the color matches and everything like that. From batch to batch, it is getting better. I'm definitely going say this. I'm going to start off by saying it's definitely getting better. The factories cannot match the different batches. So when you build an LED product, you want to make sure that all of your diodes are from a matching batch. If they are not from a matching batch, you're going to get some checkerboarding. It's going to look different colors. I mean, we've had same product next to each other, different batches and blues, especially because blue is the hardest color to create in a diode. But blues, especially, I mean, we've had one that's an aqua and one that's a dark blue and it's the same exact product. Sean knows exactly what show I'm talking about on that one. But LEDs come a long way. I mean, blue diodes weren't introduced until 1994. So that's how new this technology is. I mean, the technology itself really isn't that new. It's from 1907 is when LED was actually created. But moving forward, it really wasn't put to use until the 90s. And so LEDs kind of like cell phones. There's a new one coming out every day. And when it comes to the batches, like I said, that's getting closer. I mean, a couple of years ago, you couldn't take two of the same tile and put them next to each other. Now, with the processing technology and some of the calibration technology that's out there, you can get them pretty darn close. I mean, visually, they're almost identical, if not identical. On camera, that's kind of where we struggle a little bit, but we're getting closer. Sean, your thoughts on the same question of batches and especially any type of install. Is that something you could even consider or no, you absolutely have to have the same batch. Oh, we absolutely consider it. And we absolutely, we strongly recommend, especially in projects that are going to have either a long life cycle or multiple stages of life cycle. We often have clients that want to do a first phase and then a second phase and a third phase because that's what their budget can afford. And so one of the directions that we're pretty militant on is ensuring that we order from the same manufacturing batch. And that's really what it gets down to. It's what's coming out of the factory. And we're disassembling display technology, right? We're looking at the component level when we're talking about direct view LED. For generations, we are used to, your TV just comes and you don't take it apart. Maybe those of us did because we were curious and a little bit nerdy, but realistically all these are the components that were within a display that you didn't really think much about. But when you walk through your local store and you look at the multitude of displays running across the shelf and they all look slightly different, that's what we're trying to avoid. Or when you drive down and holiday lights are strung up and the greens and the reds don't quite match from house to house, that's exactly it. So the best ammunition that we can provide is to ensure that we have ordered from the same manufacturing batch of red, green, blue, amber, you know, diodes. Those don't have to be immediately put into the tile or encapsulated within the frame. They could be set aside and then used later on, but because they were manufactured at the same time, they are going to ensure better color matching opportunities in the future. As we move forward, the industry is very much focused on trying to match multiple batches and match multiple products. And so to David's point, there are a number of camera and processing technologies that are getting really, really close. But typically what you end up with is you're only as strong as your weakest chain, right? So if you have better performing product, you're going to decrease its performance in order to match the least performing product. When you put side by side tiles or side by side modules. So absolutely, that's a start. You want to order it all at the same time or you want to preserve them. And that includes spares. Look, damages do happen, especially in traveling and live event. We are constantly repairing the tiles because these are going in, going out, going on trucks, moving across the country. In the integrated spaces, people walk up and they run their strollers into them or lean their elbows on them or pour their coffee cups on them. And while we have significantly more robust product now than we did in the past, that's one thing that I'd add. You know, the robustness of these technologies has increased tenfold in the last 10 to 15 years. The reality is your best solution to make sure that your brand accuracy is on dial is to ensure that you have the same batch pixels. Got it. OK, my next question is to Jason. Jason, tell me the differences in all the companies that make LED processors. And really, how does it impact you building a tile? I mean, we own thousands of your tiles from Unilumin and ROE. So could you tell me, you know, why or how someone makes a determination about the pathway for what type of processor to use? That's a great question, Les. I always tell people when you look at the processing platform of an LED display, think of it as the OS, how you're going to operate it, how you're going to make all these changes, settings, those types of things. And each processing platform that's out there has its advantages and disadvantages, really depending on the application at hand. You've got Novastar, you've got Colorlight, you have Brompton, you have Megapixel. There's probably a couple others that aren't as widely adapted. So when you're choosing the processing platform, you really have to look at your application and what you want the display to be able to do and how it's going to perform. What you're going to do for a live event compared to a fixed install compared to a stadium is going to be completely different. So those are factors to take into consideration. Now on the manufacturing side, with the processors, the processors will talk to a receive card, which is embedded into the module. That module then talks to a hub board, which is something designed by the manufacturer that takes in the information from that receive card and distributes it to the display. So that's where the manufacturers have to do the heavy lifting and do the design, the engineering on how that hub board interfaces with that receive card. And so different manufacturers will do different things to enable really the feature sets for what that processing platform can do. So whether it's Novastar, Brompton, Megapixel, they design and manufacture the receive cards. And then from there, it's a handoff to what the manufacturer does. So we're seeing advancements with all these processing platforms on a regular basis. And for companies such as LMG, keeping up with that is really, you know, as we talked about with cell phones coming on something different every day, these processing platforms are coming up with some really great tools, really on a regular basis. So to keep up with those, inform your customers, really look at the applications is really key to understanding which processing platform is going to work best for your application. Got it. I totally feel I geeked out on the processor now on your explanation. I came up with another question. I'm throwing this to Doug off the top. Doug, when did LED become popular in rock concerts? Like, do you think when you go to a rock concert today, I don't care if it's indoors or outdoors, do you expect to see LED screens? And, you know, what's your thoughts on this? And when did it become popular? And is it like a standard now? Like if you go to any concert in any arena anywhere in the world, do you expect to see an LED screen? Absolutely. Yeah, it's become part of the show. It's creeping down now into smaller and smaller venues. But I think the first, like when they put the flag in the ground, I think it was Live Aid in the UK. I know in the JFK side of things in Philadelphia, they did not have LED. But there's there's a lot. If you talk to any of the folks that were at XL Video back in the day, they always refer back to that show as the moment that LED showed up at the rock concert. Yeah, I mean, the Taylor Swift tour, Coachella, anything, it's it's visual. I mean, first we had moving lights, we got audio, then we got moving lights. What else are you going to do now? I can now I can make the show even more impactful and more artistic by bringing video. IMAG, which is when we just take a camera shot of the the artists and put it up on the screen. But not only that, they're doing dynamic content on the screens. And it's just it's where we're at. It's expected for sure. I gotcha. OK, OK, I'm going to shift gears. This question is to David. Is LED popular for exhibition stands and is it like concerts where people are feeling like you have to use an LED screen on your exhibition stand? And also, is there a general rule for viewing distance and pixel pitch? And maybe you could throw an idea as to your thoughts. Sure. Well, let's do viewing distance and pixel pitch. A good rule of thumb for that would be if it's you take the pixel pitch and it's usually it's always in millimeters. So you go from millimeters to meters and that would be your minimum viewing distance. Anything further back, it just gets better. As far as David, hold on. Can you explain pixel pitch? What does that mean? So pixel pitch is the distance between the center of one pixel and the center of the following pixel, whether it's up or down. So that's that's pixel pitch. So if you have a one point two millimeter pixel pitch, you take one pixel and you go to the next pixel. And that's the distance between the center of each one. So, David, if we have a five millimeter screen, what would be the viewing distance that you would recommend? Five meters. OK, so you just take the the pixel pitch and just convert it from millimeters to meters. Correct. Simple rule. Anything from there back, you're not really going to see the pixels. Got it. OK. Does anyone have any different thought on this? Jason, go ahead. Yeah, no, we get asked that question all the time. And for a lot of folks, I reference like DPI back in the print world. I talk to people and I might explain, OK, if you have a 65 inch television and one model is 1K, which is 1920 by 1080 and the other is 4K, 3840 by 2160. Same physical area, but four times the amount of pixels. And to your point, David, everything in LED is in the metric system. So converting that 25.4 millimeters is one inch. A lot of people see those billboards on the side of the road, 14 by 48. And typically those can be we see 20 millimeters, pretty typical on those getting down to 16. So that's how I reference pixel pitch in a lot of ways. And people kind of when you do the analogy to television, they pretty much get it. Got it. Sean, your thoughts? Yeah, I just say, you know, that measurement has worked very well for us, especially in events and in large signage. You know, when we're going from 20 millimeters between the pixels down to eight millimeters between the pixels, as we get into what we consider ultra fine pitch. Right. When we get below one point to one millimeter between, it becomes a little bit more subjective. Right. Anything below two millimeter is really meant to be, you know, kind of stood up next to and seen from a very, very close distance. At that point, you really get into what is the content that's going to go on the screen. Right. So it becomes a bit more subjective about if you're going to take a eight point Excel sheet and put the sheet on the screen and expect everybody to be able to see and to not have aliasing around the text and such. You know, then we're going to push you into like a point nine per millimeter product. If what you're going to have is in a retail space and we're going to be showing motion video on a regular basis advertising, I don't know, Abercrombie and Fitch or something, then we're not necessarily going to need that density of pixels. But the viewing distance is still you're kind of walking up next to it and you're seeing it as close as possible. So it breaks down a little bit as we get into the ultra fine pitches and it becomes a little bit more subjective around the use case. There's not not everybody needs to put a fine point Excel sheet on an LED screen. Most of these applications are showing motion video. Most of them are showing branding video. And so that's where we do a lot of testing and demonstration to ensure that the type of content fits the board. And we want to be cost efficient. Right. You know, as you increase the number of pixels, you increase the amount of power to drive the pixels. You increase. You know, there's a there's a linear increase. And then it becomes an exponential increase as you get to the the edges, the actual boundaries of physics in this moment. Right. As we get down to point seven and point four millimeters between the tiles. You know, this is this is kind of the edge of what we can currently manufacture. And so the price goes up incrementally. And if you don't need that, that horsepower, that robustness in order to see really fine detail, like Jason's point with UHD or 2160 pixel tall content, then then you don't necessarily have to spend that. Got it. OK, I want I want Jason to geek out with me again. I want I want to talk about the different types of LED. I'll just throw out some acronyms. We mentioned SMDs and we meant there's something called G.O.B. and C.O.B. and there's probably a few others. Maybe you could give us the very short version of the difference between all these types of LED display technologies so that just the audience understands. Oh, now you're talking my language less. This is the fun part. OK, I got my geek squad hat on. I'm ready. SMD surface mount device. That's typically what people reference it, reference it as in that surface mount device. It's a package and that package contains a red, green and blue LED. That package is then placed on a circuit board. That's traditional SMD. G.O.B. or board was something that came into effect probably in the last five to six years. Some of the early iterations were challenging because within LED modules or the cabinets to get consistency across the board, literally across the board. So you wouldn't have a checkerboard effect when you put these up and you get some ambient light on there. And then C.O.B. is a is a more recent iteration, which is chip on board. Traditional C.O.B. are going to include flip chip technology and then also common cathode technology. So flip chip is essentially getting rid of the package that contains the R, G and B and actually placing the red, green, blue directly on the board. And what that does is you remove the bonding wires. So you've got a better connection, less thermodynamics, less heat, more reliable. And you also have a better spread with the light. So is that is that is that is that the best there is today right now? Yes. C.O.B. is probably the best that's out there. But again, some of it depends on the application. And one of the things that Sean referenced before, which made a lot of sense, is just talking about the robustness of LED in environments where you have high incidental touch, whether it's retail, corporate, lobby, that type of application. So, I mean, you know, at the recent Infocomm, I took my fist, literally just banged it on our C.O.B. and nothing. Also, during installation of LED or maintenance, that's where the traditional SMD technology can be very brittle. You damage a lot during installation and maintenance, whereas C. O. B., because it's sealed, you don't have any issues. Now, when it comes to C. O. B., as far as repair goes, that's where things get a little challenging because that board is sealed. To repair it, it typically has to go back to China just because the carcinogens that are in the materials that you need to break down that coating are just illegal here in the U.S. Another couple of technologies is MIP, which is a newer one as well, which is called Micro-In-Package. Some people may remember the older IMD, which was a four-in-one package. The MIP is a one-to-one package. And so what the manufacturers have done is they've retooled a lot of their SMD lines to utilize the MIP technology. So it's more efficient to produce, lower cost, and also, unlike C. O. B., the MIP, you can replace that individual package. There is a coating on it for a lot of manufacturers. It helps reduce moray and such. And typically, we're seeing MIP in 1.2 to maybe 1.9. C.O.B. is typically 1.5 and below. And the coating on the C.O.B. is getting better and better. A lot of companies are putting almost a film across the C.O.B. to cut down on not only blue light levels, but also to enhance the contrast. Jason, you totally geeked out with me. That is awesome. I think the audience is going to learn something. This question is to... David, you have a thought? Yeah. There's one other technology that's very, very new that I'd like to discuss too. It's called LIP. It's Lens-in-Package. It's for an outdoor product. And it's really... What it does is it amplifies the actual light coming out of the diode, and it decreases the power usage by 70%. Well, that sounds very efficient. So this is going to be very, very huge for the install market, especially when it comes to schools and everything like that. It is very new technology, but it is something that is very interesting and, in my opinion, is definitely the future of where we're going. Got it. I want to ask this follow-up question. You brought up the word moiré. Doug Murray, what is your thoughts on moiré and how to avoid it? Obviously, it sounds like you get a certain chip and you avoid some of it, but is moiré something we deal with as just putting up LED screens? What are your thoughts on that? I've always been told, you move the camera in a direction. Let's explain what moiré is, first of all. How do we do that? It's an effect that the camera sees on the LED screen. The LED is scanning. This is tough. You asked the wrong guys. This will take me a while. Sean, do you want to help him on the moiré? Happy to. Moiré is just one of the negative artifacts that we can see when we're pointing cameras, especially broadcast cameras, but also applicable to cell phone cameras. When we're talking about having retail spaces, I'm constantly talking to clients about, hey, you want your content to end up on social media. If your screen is screaming with all kinds of negative artifacting, then your message isn't getting across in those social media posts. Where Doug was going is moiré, particularly by a scientist named Moiré, he's French, is a mathematical challenge between the way that the capturing pixels are laid out in the camera versus the way that they are seeing the producing pixels in the LED. It's not limited to LED. For years, we were chasing moiré in fine tooth ties on news anchors and such. It's any type pattern. When that multiplier of the exact ratio of the capture pixels lines up with the exact generating pixels or of a type pattern, you're going to see a little bit of shimmer. When you see it, you know it. To your point, Les, often we are in a situation where mathematically, when you zoom in far enough or zoom out far and so most capable directors learn to work around it. But as we increase or decrease, make finer pitch pixels, then the cameras have less opportunity to see that multiplier of the math, especially as we work with the distance between the subject matter and the display technology. If we can put that wall a little bit out of focus, then that math isn't even going to happen because we're not going to see the sharp contrast edge around that generating pixel or around that pattern. That's one challenge. Another challenge, especially in live events and in broadcast camera capture that we constantly deal with, is one of rolling artifacts when you see the image roll from the perspective of the camera. That comes to making sure that your system is timed properly, that both the capture camera and the generating content is refreshing and scanning at the same rate. And so LMG is one that's going to take care of that for you and ensure that we have synchronization between those devices. But when we're dealing with LED technology, we had similar problems going back to the 80s when we were pointing cameras at computer refresh screens. You'd see those types of scans. And again, we'd see more when we were pointing at really fine ties. So not anything new, but certainly something to be aware of when we're working with, especially in live events, but thinking about it when you're talking about how your content ends up out there in the world on social media. I got to tell you, I learned there was a French scientist named Moret. And this was my learning moment for today. And Sean, thank you for giving me a really good geeky response. So this is my last question for today. We'll go back to Doug. I don't know if I'm fitting into this geek squad here. No, you're doing, you're good. You're good. What do you think the future of LED is? What can we expect as it evolves? Will it continue to get better? Have we plateaued, obviously through time? Let me rant for a little bit. Let me rant for just a little bit. I'm tired of pixel pitch improvements. I just want to stop. We see enough. As someone who purchased a lot of LED and my eyes were quite happy with what I was seeing and the incremental improvements now are so small, but the financial requirement to get those incremental improvements are enormous. Um, I just want to stop because the human eye can only see so much. However, uh, the factories have to come with new technology and new improvements, or no one's going to upgrade their inventory or their installs. So they keep pushing. I think one of the biggest changes that we've seen in the last five to eight years is the mechanics around the screen with the, in the live side of things, um, Studio 23 and the Christoph and the guys in China with the airframe, um, every manufacturer now has a version of it. And I think we're seeing the manufacturers sort of, uh, even out that there was a big spread for a while, um, where I'm, I'll, I'm not going to name manufacturers because everybody's trying their best. Um, but I think that the playing field has gotten quite, um, neutralized with, as far as how the led is deployed into the field. And I think they're going to have to find different ways to differentiate themselves. So Doug, is it, is it, is it like I go into a Best Buy and I see 50 TVs are all turned on and they all kind of look pretty good. That's exactly how it is. And then, and then one day one shows up and it's curved and you're like, do you remember the curve TVs? Are we still selling those? Um, I have, I don't know. I'm sure they still have a curve. I haven't, I know I was in a TV store not long ago and I didn't see any curves. Yeah. I think it was a moment. I liked the moment. It was a fad. It was a fad. Interesting. Yeah. And the led curving the screen. I, you know, I don't know where we're going. I think we're putting it on every surface, the ceiling, the wall, the floor. What else do we have? I think we're going to have something called, uh, we have COB right now and I, I think it's going to end up as chip on ball. And that is my eyeball. We're just going to skip the whole wall and we're going to put the, the screen, uh, right in our face. So. Okay. Well, I, I'm looking for the future, David Luchsinger. How, how do you predict the future compared to Doug? Are we going to put chips in our eyes? Elon Musk is not on this podcast. Definitely a little bit different. Um, 3d volumetric displays. That's going to be a thing. Um, uh, kinetic displays. Um, there already is one in time square, but they're gaining popularity. I mean, this year at InfoComm LG had one, um, which was kind of, I think that's a moment, Dave. I think it's a moment. I, yeah, I, I mean, it's, they've been around for a while. There's a, there's a couple of companies that have been doing it really well for awhile. Um, uh, Unilumin had a absolutely outstanding product that I thought was probably the best thing that I saw, um, at InfoComm and it was a 55 inch single panel, super thin led product. Um, 1.2 millimeter. That was absolutely amazing. Um, I love to see where that's going to go because now you have a, um, encapsulated product that is and is something that can replace a TV and can literally go right into the wall. Um, so that's a really cool product. I mean, there's tons of stuff out there. Um, I think they're going to keep doing, you know, from, from Doug's point, as far as like pixel pitch and stuff, we need the rest of the, um, industry to catch up with led. I think that is the biggest problem that we have right now is that everything that feeds us can't feed enough pixels. You know, they just can't. The processing just becomes a little silly when we're just trying to improve the last two feet of the viewing distance. Yeah. I mean, we, we were starting to get to the point where like, you know, all the led process can do AK. Well, what can feed it? I mean, there's nothing really that's able to do that. Um, I think, uh, SMPTE 2110, which is a, uh, you know, uh, a way that we're going to be delivering, um, stuff to led. I think that's another huge thing that's, that's coming down the road. I think we're still a couple of years away from seeing it implemented, um, you know, fully, but, you know, that I think is going to be something that, you know, the whole infrastructure of not just led, but, you know, events, event spaces, um, installations and everything like that. I think it's going to kind of go towards that as well. To your point that the, uh, the part about, we don't, we don't, we're running out of things that can feed the, these resolutions as Nvidia pushes their envelope, which they're pushing in as hard as they can. They're going to keep delivering graphics cards that, that multiply the amount of pixels that we can push. So I don't think that's going to be the issue. I, I, I just think it's what our eyes can see. I just think we're behind, like, um, as far as, you know, if you, if you go to an, and you do an event or you do an install at this point to be able to push that many pixels, the cost for that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Ridiculous. Yeah. The cables can't even transfer the data. So I mean, they're, they're starting to make, you know, receiver cards that take fiber. Yeah. I mean, just imagine a whole wall off of fiber. I mean, it's great. I think RGW and you know, the multiple colors, that's something that Sean and I, you know, and I love telling the story because nobody thought of this and everybody, nobody gives us credit for this last, but Sean and I talked about that with Brompton and row five years ago. And now all of a sudden it's out there. And I even, you know, I even mess with the guys from Brompton every once in a while. I'll say, remember that conversation we had, you were predicting the future, Jason, your thoughts on the evolution of led and to the future. And then Sean, you can wrap us up. Some great discussions so far, you know, there's the visual acuity of the displays. Then also there's the workflow efficiencies. And as David and Doug pointed out, you can have the processing capability, but the content that's driving it. I mean, I've seen folks that you know, 1.2 is essentially what their, their content system can handle, but they demand 1.9. And then what they do is they down-res, you know, so they can accommodate it. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's the silliness that you see out there just because people don't understand, you know, sometimes better pixel pitch doesn't equate to better quality and people are spending money where they don't need to. And then on the workflow efficiency side, you know, SMPTE 2110, IPMX, those things are going to make a difference, but the adaptation isn't there yet. But when it is the ability to drive so many digital endpoints is, is going to be incredibly easier. What you referenced, David, to what you saw at the show that that was an active matrix display. You know, we talked about before a little bit about scan rates that Sean referenced, you know, the tightest that we're seeing now is I guess a 1.5, a 1.8, 1 over 8 scan, but the active matrix, I mean, that's one-to-one with the, with the driver I see and in the LED. And that's where, yeah, that's where the rubber meets the road. And you're going to see LED going to a lot of other applications. David, I agree with you on some of the applications with AR. We're seeing people put together these immersive caves and these experiences utilized for simulations, training, virtual learning, you know, XR and virtual production initially were used in, in, in basically film and television. Now you're seeing it on the corporate side of things. And it is, as I said, simulation, the visual or the virtual learning. I mean, that is a huge, massive market to connect people on a global basis. So I think we're going to see a lot in that respect. A lot of the manufacturers are also pushing, you know, the, the goal is that you're going to be able to, you know, a wallpaper, a wall in your house, and, you know, just multiple channels, you know, I think we're going to get there, you know, is probably 10 to 15 years out. But I think that definitely is on the horizon. But people want lighter, they want more efficient, brighter. So all these things, people just continue to push, push for, but it's really exciting. It's it's so cool to see where we are. Jason, Jason, do we have do we have IP 67 fine pitch somewhere on the horizon? Wait, well, that Unilumin had released I mean, 69 K, which is IP 67 underwater. IP 65 is waterproof. What's IP 67? More waterproof. I'm gonna have to Google it. But I'm 90% sure that it is direct view, like when you're spraying water directly on the tile, right? Perhaps if you had an outdoor fountain experience, that you wanted to use LED to -- We did one of those. We did one of those for somebody. I don't know. IP 69. Yeah, IP 69 K. I mean, I tell people it's it's built like a brick shithouse. I mean, you can put in, you know, hot, humid environment, you take a pressure washer to it. I mean, it's What kind of what kind of pitches, Jason? We're 2.5. We released a 1.9. I bright COB that is IP 65 at info comm and that's about 3500 net but when you Will we ever see that at the consumer level? Because that's probably the next horizon for the LED manufacturers that we know right now are all serving us, you know, the integrators and the entertainers, but will it ever hit the consumer Absolutely. You have a big pool that you want to put a screen out Sean, let's bring Sean, bring us to closure here, buddy. What do you think the future of LED is? Where are we going? Sure, sure. Let me touch on color, right? You know, we have stepped from the standard dynamic range world of being able to see like 28% displayed of what the human eye can perceive, you know, both an sRGB and kind of rec 709. And you can look those up to now with DC IP three and rec 2020, you know, being closer to like the 75% of what the human eye can see. And a lot of that is in LEDs ability to generate really, really bright whites, and really, really black blacks, right. And so then the color range through that is preserved for what we experience in everyday life, you know, so we're going to continue to see direct view LED region for the ability to simulate real life, especially as Jason and David, we're talking about, you know, utilizing, you know, hologram caves and such, right, like all of us kind of nerd out a little bit and, and go back to, you know, a lot of our sci fi roots and what we want to create, but, but in reality, we're helping to build, you know, caves and pre visualization spaces where the human mind wants to be tricked that this is reality. So that's, that's an application, right? You know, walking around a lot of the recent expos, there's a huge drive to be eco driven, right, we in all of our clients and partners are trying to preserve this earth, to spend less money on power, and to have products that are more power efficient. And so there's a huge momentum in bringing, like we made this technology amazing. Now we're maintaining that performance, but we're bringing down the amount of heat and the amount of power that they're utilizing. I talked a little bit, you know, we talked about scan rate and refresh rate, those continue to blossom and bloom and grow. You know, all of us on this call know that we go through cyclical waves of stereoscopic and 3D, you know, hype. And so I anticipate that we're right around the corner from another 3D stereoscopic hype season, where direct view, no glasses, no glasses. I'm done with the 3D glasses. That was so 90s. It was and then it was again in the 2021. And you know, right. So it's a it's a cycle. Anyway, you know, as I was talking about before, we're seeing new shapes, we're seeing thinner, we're seeing flexible, we're seeing transparent, we have a lot of clients that we're allowing for the interior audience to look through windows, either to outside or into other rooms. But then we want a takeover moment, we want to advertise for our latest, greatest, soft, you know, beverage company or whatever, right to be able to make those moments appear out of nothing. And so transparent technology in direct view LED is huge. And then, you know, shapes and all kinds of wacky, like, where can we put it? I think that we will continue to iterate. So I think in the last three to five years, we've seen we've seen some great iteration moving the ball, you know, in color dynamics, moving in intensity, moving in pixel pitch, moving in refresh rate, all of those have have continued to iterate. But as we move forward, you know, we have some great manufacturers that are looking to unique and and out of the box applications for this technology. Wow, guys, I have to tell you, I have to thank all of you, Doug, Sean, Jason, and David, I have totally geeked out today. I have totally gotten my dose of LED. Getting ready for the Fourth of July to celebrate our nation's, you know, celebration there for our birth of a country. But I really appreciate all your insight. For anyone who's listening to this. I hope you spend the time to hear all of it because there's a lot of great information. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Go ahead, everybody. Great job. Thank you so much.