THE NEW NORMAL WITH LIVE EVENTS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg and the road ahead. Today I have three amazing guests. I have Michael Nicoles. He is the CEO of Full Spectrum Productions. I have Elliott Arocho who is the managing partner for C+E The Company, and I have Laurence Paverd and he is the director of production for Drury Design. Everyone, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you, thank you guys. Today our subject is pretty near and dear to my heart. The return to normal and no masks. As our industry, you know, the world has all kinds of geopolitical things happening right now. But in the United States primarily, and the convention trade show exhibition world, we are coming back with the with every kind of imaginable events. People are dying to get out. And as we we come back into this new or we'll call it a re-energized world, we're finding people are coming out and the mask seems to be going away. I don't know if that's jurisdictional or, but in the shows in the last two weeks I have seen masks not be a thing. So let me throw out some questions and see what you guys think. The first question I'm going to throw out is to Laurence. Laurence will live. Meetings look like it appears that COVID's going away. Will they be different? Will they be the same? And will there be masks? Well, actually today, March 7th, the mask mandate ends here in New York City and in New York State. So in terms of going into restaurants and public spaces, you no longer need to wear a mask and you no longer need to show proof of vaccination. We have, as you know, that's been doing a lot of live events, actually in-person events. And a lot of our clientele have chosen to do these events in states where there is no mandate. So they've worked around, I think some of the requirements and some of our, you know, sort of constriction that we've had in the past by going to those states. I do think that it is our duty of care and our responsibility to make sure that we do continue to produce safely. So I think that there is going to be a focus on making sure that our teams are kept safe and even without mandates, that we that we mask up where we're appropriate. I think and you probably have seen this too, that we're gearing or at least moving toward more regional, smaller meetings than than getting straight back into the large swing of things as opposed to the outdoor events and the large expos, which I think have sort of gotten the jump on things in that area. But I do think that, yes, I think we are going to be mindful. We've had a number of false starts with Delta and with Omnicron. So I think that there is a cautiousness about going full steam ahead. Got it. Full steam ahead. That's going to be the hashtag of the day. Everyone in case you're thinking about this podcast, full steam ahead. All right I'm throwing the same question to Michael. Michael masks no masks. You know you know what will live meetings look like and what are you hearing or feeling or seeing? Well, overall I'm seeing no masks, right? No now or making them be obvious. Somebody wants to wear a mask. Fine. You can wear a mask, but we're not mandating that. And the clients aren't really either. But just in January they were. So I think that's certainly going away is when you talk about will they be different? I mean, I feel that the events always need to evolve and always be different. So no matter how we want to do that, whether it's going to be a virtual or alive or what the aspects are, I think that, you know, we're going to be doing things differently for that live audience or for that virtual audience just to keep things even fresh, let alone safe, fresh and safe. That's your hashtag for the day, fresh and safe. You know, what's interesting is that, you know, we're it seems like every event, the audience is the people that take that risk. They've decided to show up and make the track. And then what do we do to make them feel comfortable and safe? And sometimes it's optics and sometimes it's, you know, it's it's real, real concerns. So interesting. Elliott, your thoughts on, you know, masks, no masks. What are you hearing and feeling from your customers and what are you thinking as we move forward? Yeah, just like Laurence. I'm in New York City, too. So it was really interesting to to hear the news, you know, that, you know, regarding the, the mandates and no need to wear masks and going into restaurants. And so a lot of our New York City based clients are coming to terms with that right now. So we had a few last minute pivots, you know, the beginning of the year for meetings that were happening in March and April, where they started out. Do you guys know they started out as live meetings and then, you know, we had to, like, pivot hard and just make them virtual. And then so I got some calls now recently and say, okay, let's make next year's meetings live. And what does that mean? So, you know, we'll move forward and we'll forge ahead with the live meeting. But we have to still kind of consider this. I hate using the term hybrid because they really are two different meetings. But this additional offering for remote workers, for folks who maybe still aren't comfortable with traveling, I had a client call me the other day and, you know, set up this whole meeting. It was a sea level meeting, and at the last minute they all canceled and which wasn't coincidental. You know, you had folks saying, yep, I will be there. And then at the very last meeting, you know, they're pulling out. So there's an accommodation that I think will need to do not just, you know, what are the, you know, localities and what are their mandates and what are their restrictions for a live meeting. But I still think we still need to kind of accommodate this remote workforce in tandem with this live meeting. So that'll be interesting to see how that evolves as well. And, you know, to Laurence's point, this whole regional thing keeps coming up more and more and say rather than having this big, you know, 2000, 3000 person meeting, how do we have these simultaneous regional meetings so that that's a that's an additional accommodation, right. How do you make that impactful. How do you make that engaging where you're you've got these different groups that are meeting live in smaller portions, but then you still need to connect the regions virtually. So those are those are additional challenges that we're kind of, you know, not just anticipating but working towards solutions for. So instead of the one big meeting, we're going to have a few smaller meetings and we're going to connect all the dots. Yeah, that's that's kind of how certain clients are approaching it at this point. So we have crews that are going out. And you know, a lot of the planning for shows that we did this week was planned maybe the first week of January. So we have one crew that had to not only be vaccinated, they all had to be boosted. That's actually out in the field right now. And it's interesting, the expectations of all the production teams are, what are we going to do to ensure the safety of the crew and set some standards or expectations, and then you've got the people that are attending and whether they're mask optional. And you also have the idea that we have to be respectful kind of what you said, Elliott, about those who don't feel comfortable traveling, maybe they have amino compromised or something. And so there's got to be that extra component so we can tell that story to that person who's not able to join. So this is my question. I'm throwing this one to Michael right now. And you know, do you think that health and safety stuff is going to be is prevalent, has been in the past? It seems like when you look at the news right now, especially with the what's going on in Europe, it seems like COVID has taken a backseat to that and how quickly it cometh and how quickly it goeth, and hopefully it will, we'll leave it behind. But, you know, how important is it for the the health and safety to be advertised for an audience to come? You know, when you're trying to get attendees to sign up, you know, is there has to be a program, does that have to be promoted so that people feel comfortable? Well, I think I think safety and health and so on is always at a forefront of any kind of live event. We've been doing that even before COVID. You know, when we had a flu epidemic at one event, you know, we had we were putting signs up on the screens that said pound fists and wash hands. It's like, stop shaking hands. And that was a few years ago or five years ago, I would say. So I think that the health part is certainly always something that's forefront. I mean, you've got five, 10,000 people or even a hundred people together in one space. You want to make sure that everybody's healthy. And so you put those protocols out there. And I think those things online are are great. But I you know, like you said, the news is really change things and now it's not at the forefront. So I think people have kind of maybe forgotten about it or aren't. It's just not top of mind. And, and the mass things or mandates are going away. So it'll it will be interesting though to see what a clients want to put out there. I think there's always that they do want to say, okay, we're putting all our safety measures out there, but I would hope you're expecting to do that anyway regardless. So I don't know whether they're going to have to put that out or whether they feel it's necessary. But what we've been hearing is everyone wants to know what everyone else is doing. So they're trying to figure out what they did in this city and what size a meeting was held and in that city, and the data they want us to compile so that we can give them some information to actually help make good decisions. It seems like we have to have a standard and say, look, there's mass for those people that are uncomfortable. We just have to we have to provide for safety. But then, you know, the question is, is it is it more optics or is it the reality? This question I'm going to throw back to Elliott. Elliott, the question on the health and safety side. Do you really think the you know, before when the corporate CEO was turning on the news and you'd hear about how many people were dying with COVID? Well, with that person say, okay, we're not going to do our event, we'll go virtual. We're just not going to do it live now because the news cycle has changed. Do you think that that that's changed their attitudes about doing events? And they're saying we can do events safely. No problem. Yes. And it's interesting that you mentioned the data, because there was an interesting study that came out of Johns Hopkins not too long ago, earlier this month, which, you know, we're two years into this. And so there is a there is data that you can extract from that. And so, you know, one of the most prestigious medical institutions in the world has concluded that, you know, what the the lockdowns and some of the protocols in place didn't necessarily stop the spread to the extent that they thought they did. Right. I don't mean to get political at all. This is this is data, right? This is research agnostic. And so since then, I find it interesting that some of these protocols have been loosened because you've got now you've got some reliable data that you can fall back on. And so it's, you know, especially you guys know my area is mostly pharma, not exclusively but mostly pharma. So these folks are plugged into, you know, that type of information. And so and you know what are the results of that. And I think armed with that information as opposed to, you know, the social temperature, people are making decisions around that. And so I think yeah, they're plugged into the information as that as more data continues to come out about safety standards and, you know, and, and policies around that data, I think we'll see more loosening up. You know, if the data takes a turn, you know, then things get stringent again. They'll just change again. Okay. All right. This is my question to Laurence. Laurence. Obviously there's parts of the world right now. We're traveling is probably not a consideration. I don't think people are traveling to in the Russian area of town, so to speak. But do you think with the news cycle changing and with COVID, maybe taking a break, if that's the or maybe permanently, do you think the attendee is ready to get on a plane and come to the event? And I'm going to ask this question both domestically and internationally. So if you're from New York. Are you are people ready to go to Las Vegas to hold to go to an event? And then the same question would be, are they ready to go from New York to London and go to an event? And internationally, those are different kind of things. Yeah. You know, I'd heard this question asked on a previous podcast that you did, and I think someone was talking about Singapore and getting stranded in Singapore as much as they loved Singapore. And I hadn't actually, you know, taken it that far up. I have looked at what some of the conferences are doing in Europe, and they're actually offering insurance to get you back should you decide to make the trip out there and or they'll pay for your accommodation while you're quarantine, things have changed. I think that there is obviously a great deal of pent up desire, frustration, eagerness to get out into the world, to engage with one another, certainly within the sales sector. And, you know, they're really insistent on the sort of the in-person handshake to seal a deal. So I do think that there is that. But I also think that there is a large segment out there that are quite comfortable not having to leave their family at home and get on a train, a train or a plane, or navigate TSA and disorderly passengers and all the rest of it, and sort of enjoying the fact that they can engage with the world, but through technology and through being, you know, being either in the office or at home. So I think it's a bit of a it's a, you know, it's a bit of a push pull scenario. I do think, though, that and I'm seeing it even at Drury, there's a there's a tremendous amount of hunger and appetite to see colleagues again, to go out and be in a ballroom, to believe it or not, to see ballroom carpet. You know, it's just like people want to get out there. I thought you were going to mention the food, the flat, flat meat tray or something. So I think that that's that's sort of the compelling into things. And I think it's I do think though, it's more domestic than international, I do we have had a fair amount of our staff actually on personal level, you know, sort of take small trips overseas, but even those still seem pretty daunting in the amount of sort of procedures you have to take the testing and all the rest of it, and just the running the risk of, of the geopolitical sort of climate at the moment, things are changing so rapidly. I think people are just really concerned about that, not just with COVID, but just in general. It just doesn't seem like. And again, this is one of those knock on effects from COVID, right? The the world, the landscape is very different than it was two years ago, where the world seemed a little bit more accommodating and welcoming. Not so much anymore. Well, I will tell you, if we're going to get stuck somewhere instead of Singapore, we should get stuck in Bora Bora. Okay, that's the place we should get stuck. We we. If you had to be stuck there for an extra week or two, it wouldn't be the worst. Okay, so this question is as to Michael Nicoles. Michael, is there a sense of relief that we've survived approximately two years and we're finally going back, and I've never seen cruise happier in my life than to be out in ballrooms. And, you know, for whatever reason is, what's that sense of relief? And, and, you know, the clients saying, gosh, we can finally go back to doing it. Yeah, there's definitely sensory leaf. Some of the latest shows have been on. It's, you know, when you get some of these big shows that are annual things and you get the same cruise back together again, it's like, you know, we hadn't seen each other in a few years, and it's getting the family back together. And so certainly. And for the cruise, I mean, and especially for the local cruise, you know, you couldn't be happier for them because they've been sitting locked up and without any work. And, you know, for some of them we can get back some when we can't. But yeah, everybody's happy to be back. As business owners. We're certainly happy that it's more back in full screen, you know, in full swing. But I yeah, I definitely believe that people are certainly happy to be back out and about and, and working together and like you were talking about funny the the ballroom carpet or, or even the flat meet is, you know, we're all good with it now. Yes. So, so I'm throwing the same question to Elliott about being getting back to it. And you mentioned that you have a lot of farmer clients. So what how is the pharma industry looking at this, as you know, are they more apt to go back and do an event, or are they less apt to do an event based on, you know, this what COVID going away? They really are more apt just to to piggyback on the earlier question, it's not a full exhale. There is a sense of relief, but it's not a full. But it's just nice to even have half an Excel right. To be less uptight about it is is just healthier, right, for everyone. And you know, as Michael pointed out, you know, the people that were sitting, you know, my heart has been breaking for the core of PA who have been out of work, because when you go and do the virtual stuff, there's less of a need for the production assistant, right? So when you go live, you start bringing in all those folks who have just been completely removed from the pivot. Right? So it's nice to be able to to bring those folks back. But yeah, they're there is they are more apt. They're dying to look sales of sales. Right. You can do all the marketing and home office all you want, but at the end of the day, these folks need to get out into the field. You know, they need to connect with their institutions. They need to connect with their doctors. They need to connect with their customers. And you know that element for all the technology that we substitute for it, you know, as Michael Lawrence pointed out, there's whether whether it's a fist bump or a handshake, you know, depending on how you are canceled for two years. Yeah, exactly. The two year delay on a handshake. We're doing the bow part, you know. Yeah, yeah. And so there's just there's just that component that, you know, you've got these A-type personalities who want to go out and sell, you know, and you're asking them not to. So they need to be out there. So yeah, you know, clients are eager to have their sales forces out and about. You know, I go out and do a lot of customer visits. And let me tell you, I feel like I've been in a two year hiatus of, you know, trying to take a meeting with someone. First it was, can we meet outside? And then it's like it's snowing. Well, it's still outside and it's been challenging to get people to want to visit you. I'll meet you at a coffee place outside or some of the challenges there. Okay. So this question is to Laurence. So now we're getting back to it. We've got some shows that are going to be live. They might be smaller regional meetings. We've got maybe this virtual thing our meeting producers adapting to I mean the last two years they've had to learn how to do all this virtual stuff. Right. So now they're having to adapt to I think what Elliott had said was two different offerings, the live offering, the remote offering. And how do you find producers are adapting to it? I have found a few producers that have just said, I hate it. I don't want to do it. I'm going to come back to the industry when we can go back to doing what we do and we love to do, and then others have really embraced it. What are your thoughts? Yeah. You know, it's funny that you should say that because actually, you know, even at Drury, we have some incredibly skilled senior executive producers that have done just that. They've hung up their head there. The digital thing is not for them. And then during the false starts, they came back and then of course, got kicked in the teeth with another digital event. Right. So but I do think that this it's, it's an incredible time to be living through as a producer. I think just because of the, the, the tools that you have are broadened. But it's also incredibly tense in that I think clients are expecting more for less. We're also we're we're starved in terms of labor and talent, because a lot of people have left the talent pool to go work elsewhere. And also, you know, and you've noted this before on some of the other shows, there's costs are going up. You know, what you see on the news in terms of cost of living and inflation? I mean, there's a reality to that and we're encountering that. So unfortunately for your team, Les, I mean, a lot of times, you know, it's myself and others, the executive producers, leaning on you to try and bring down the budget cost for whatever it is. I mean, lighting rig. So system, you know, as we go then from digital back to live and we're coming, you know, we're all very happy to look at rigging and, you know, lighting rigs again and the line array and all the rest of it because we we're just looking at the digital domain. We realizing that costs are not the same. So we can't just go back to the same old templates. We have to revise those. And it's just there's a real tension that that exists at the moment. I think for producers to try and navigate the creative, which needs to be dazzling the client expectations. And then of course they want to pay, you know, like when we went into the hybrid event. You know, in their minds and seemed, you know, if you weren't doing a live event, the digital event should be half the price. Well, not really. It's sort of cross across sort of shuffling of money. Right? Instead of the venue you got, you got the platform or all the other technology that you're bringing in. So it's a challenging time for producers. I think it's a tremendously challenging time with with creative cost and client expectations. You know, that's another tweak. Creative costs and client expectations. Michael Nichols, do you agree with Laurence? What are your thoughts on that? I will tell you one thing. You can take this to the bank. Shipping has going up because cost of fuel and the plane tickets to bring the attendees and the crew, all of that is and you know, the crew, of course, the the local crew, you thought live there. Everyone has been displaced and went to other places. But Michael, what do you think about Laurence's response? No, I agree with Laurence. And and we're seeing that all the time there with these costs. And the client doesn't really understand it either, that they they're like, well, you know, we can just do the Zoom call. Well, and that was the first things right. With the hybrids. It's like, well it's easy. You just pull everybody on a zoom and you just stick them on there. It's like, and then Joe show up two minutes before you're supposed to go on live. It's like, you know, you can't do that. And so now with and now going back to live again, it's like, well and then you want to do a mixture. Well the mixture is fine. But the creatives so different for both that trying to keep them engaged with a hybrid audience as opposed to virtual or a live audience becomes difficult because, you know, you'd never know if that person that's that's virtual, that's really even paying attention what they're watching their screen or not. But yeah, the cost piece and we will come after you to even for shipping. Sorry. No, no, we're going to start getting horses and put hay in the horses so they can they can pull the 53ft truck. Truck. It's you know, what it is is these are just the realities. So. So, Elliott, do you know your thoughts on this creative that has to be produced like Michael was referring to? There's different types of creative. I mean, how do you embrace this and do it in a cost effective way? And, you know, I guess the dancing elephants are no longer in the show room for them. The budget. Yeah. Well, that's been you know, that's been the biggest challenge, right? You know, as Laurence said I was using the 10% mark. Right? I was like, you want the same show. You know, you want a digital, you know, a virtual show, but you think it costs 10% of live, you know, whatever that range is. But it was utterly ridiculous, right? And so that was a challenge to be able to manage client expectations around that. And then the next thing too is, you know, the term hybrid, as I mentioned earlier, which is such a misnomer, it's two different pieces and two different technologies. So you're essentially running two concurrent shows with two concurrent crews. That is in no way cheaper, right? People who have been sitting on the sidelines and maybe weren't working out, it's not just shipping rates went up year, you know, and people were looking, you know, how do I supplement? You know, I'm not calling anyone out, but you had certain positions now charging, you know, not just for their time but for their home gear, you know, and adding to that. And when you do things virtually, you know, there were there are redundancies that originally I didn't account for, you know, and I was like, oh, wow, I need this backup system virtually in case one goes down. That was more expensive, you know, to be able to add to a budget. So yeah, it's been a challenge. Well, you know what? The thing that I can tell you all is that there's no one happier than going back to ballrooms than people in our industry. Unless unless you're a virtual only person, everyone seems to be happy to be. To this, I always describe ourselves as we're in the people gathering business, whether it's a concert tour or a convention and exhibition. So this is my final question. I'm going to throw it to Laurence first. Laurence, what are you most excited about? Our industry going back to its former glory and whatever that means. You know, in 2019 or before when we actually had big gatherings, what are you most excited about? You know, as a technical director producer, you know, for the industry? What are your thoughts? Well, I mean, I think like most folks in the industry, I'm really it's the interpersonal connections that I'm that I'm keen to reconnect with. A lot of the folks that I've worked with in the past that are out West or whatever. So it's the same in person. There is a there is a chemistry there that you cannot necessarily get through the, you know, the screen. But I guess my hope is also that if we come back better than before, I mean more innovative, more creative. And then also I'm hoping that that that sense of appreciation doesn't win too quickly because I think that unfortunately, we become jaded so quickly, so that when you're back in the in the ballroom and you're putting in a 14 hour day that, you know, it's quickly forgotten that you actually missed people 14 hour a day. Oh, I missed the 14 hour day. Hey, as long as the air conditioning is on, we're good. Michael Nicoles, your thoughts about getting back to the former glory of the shows that we have done together, and we have done many shows together? Yeah, I mean, much Laurence's point. Yeah, it's going to be great to see everybody, and it's been good to see some of the people we work with rather than watch looking at them on a screen. But even more so, I'm looking forward to seeing the audiences again and being able to really see their appreciation. You know, when you do, even if it's a hybrid, you're doing a live thing on stage with some talent and you tell the the local audience there that might just be there, just a view you can't applaud, you can't make any noise. We don't want people to know that there's somebody in the audience. So and that brings down the energy level of the performance. Right? So to be able to have those audiences in there and appreciating the talent and so on, that we're bringing the stage and, and really building up the overall enthusiasm. I mean, that's what's great about live events, I think, is really having that audience there. You know, it's kind of like theater. The show is not the same without the audience. I would beg to say, and I guess we haven't been around an audience so long, from handshakes to sitting in rooms with lots of people going, there's a lot of people here. It feels a little weird. Elliott, would you bring us home and tell us what you're most excited about? The former glory of doing live events and putting people together. What are your thoughts? Yeah, yeah, I'm in agreement with Michael and Laurence. And, you know, certainly we all want to see old friends, right? It's family. We kind of we miss our family. We've been doing this for so long. We're so disconnected. You know, Zoom and WebEx and live broadcasts can only do so much. So that's really important. And I think with respect to the innovation patient, this is a different podcast for you. So I'm setting you up for the next one. We're in the middle of a generational we're in the middle of a generational conundrum. We've got Gen Xers, we've got millennials and we've got Zoomers who are the workforce. We've got millennials who are turning 40. The first wave of millennials, can you believe that? Are turning 40? The way those three groups receive information is way different. When we get an audience of millennials into a ballroom who can't keep their eyes off of their phones, it's going to be really, really interesting. So how we engage those folks, how we communicate out, is not just going to be part of the regional meeting, but this, you know, the big event, you know, folks are the whole generation is just who are living their lives through social media. And a live event isn't what it meant to maybe all of us on this phone, I mean, on this call. So that's going to be interesting to how to design the meeting for three different generations who receive information completely differently. So that'll be fun. You know what? I will take you up on that on a future podcast. Guys. Thank you so much. Today I want to thank Michael, Laurence, and Elliott. You guys are awesome. Amazing. I can't wait to see you in a ballroom, a convention center, and exhibit space. We're going back to doing what we love to do, and the world is turning right side up, at least on the event business in the jurisdiction that we're in. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead everybody. Great job. And thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. Thank you.