THE RETURN OF LIVE TOURING BUSINESS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today we have three amazing guests. We have Craig Mitchell. He is the Managing Director of LMG Touring, which is an ETP company. We have Keith Albrizzi. He is Evil Panda Corporation. We think that's an awesome name. And we also have Victor Reid Sr. Victor is with the Global Event Production Network. Guys, welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having us. Guys thanks for joining today. Today we are going to talk about a very important subject, the return of the live touring business. I can't tell you how excited I am to go to a show. I think most humans in the United States and the world want to go experience entertainment, and they want to go see their favorite artists. And with the pandemic going away, there's such a great opportunity with all the pin up demand. And so today we're going to talk about the return of musical touring and entertainment. So I'm going to start with Keith. Keith, with the return of musical touring, what's different? How is the world going to look different? And when we go out and go to our tours and as we as you, as the person putting the tours on and putting them together as a production manager, what's going to be different? I think the biggest thing that we're going to see different and, you know, it's going to get down to municipalities, which is very interesting to me because what we're finding is in LA County is different than Miami, Florida. You're having Charlotte, North Carolina, and these different places. And what they're doing is that you've got relaxed protocols when it comes to COVID. So from just getting to the stage to the customer buying their ticket, getting into the venue, the response is different. You know, if you've been vaccinated, is that important to your to your your group. Right. So I've got one artist right now that you cannot tour if you're not 100% vaccinated, you know, and how that affected our Billboard show that we just did was the drummer had to be 12ft apart rather than six feet apart. And that was a ruling by LA County. They ended up relaxing that at the last minute. But it's all these little nuances that we're finding that each municipality or each county is coming up with. And it is to me, it is, you know, it costs money. It takes time. You know, everyone here is all dealt with. COVID officers, the yin yang. We've all felt that before. So, you know, just the amount of money to get to stage I think is a huge impact on us. Got it. Wow, Keith, that was a that was a lot to think about. Okay, I'm throwing the question to Victor. Victor, what's different? What's the world going to be different. And how how are our tours going to look or feel or or getting to the stage, so to speak, as Keith says? Well, you know what? In addition to what Keith said, and I totally, totally agree with him. But what I what it seems that everything is so fluid, things that are that are in place today in terms of the way to return to live entertainment or live live show events are changing tomorrow. I mean, when this thing first happened, I was like geared in like, okay, I'm paying attention to what's happening, and here we go. And it's like, just like anti-climactic. Every week there's something else happening that's totally contrary to what they said last week. So I think there's no definitive way of approaching it. We have to we have to be. We have to be. I don't want to say loose, but we have to be forgiving in everyone's approach. And everyone's a mindset of how to how to enter it. Now, the things that are for sure is going to take place is a certain protocol is going to be implemented backstage as well as front of house. It's going to happen now where they have one protocols to deal with all of it at some point in time. Yeah, hopefully it will. It will take place. But right now it's very fluid. I mean, a Live Nation just came out with a protocol that I got a email. I'm starting to read emails for the last quarter of last year. I didn't read the emails because it was just it was just like rhetoric. It was just so much stuff going on and and no real, real substance of how to approach it. But I do think that there is going to be a certain protocol that hopefully will be not just from a municipality point of view, as keeps a pointed out, but from a, you know, a national or international approach. International, it's probably a little ambitious, but at least national approach, you know. But we're going to figure it out. We always do. That's a good point, Victor, because, you know, and early on when all this went down, I called Craig on the phone and I just came back from overseas when all this hit the fan and, and I called Craig and I was like, Craig, what are you guys going to do? And I and I called every production house I knew. I called everyone and just said, what are you guys going to do in protocols in order to get back to stage? And it was so new. He was like, you know, we're we're working on it. And, you know, we're coming up with ideas. I was one of the fools that went out and bought an antigen machine. I bought a blood machine that transferred over to an antigen. Thank goodness. It's paid for itself a hundred times over. But I agree with you. When we try to get back to stage, I. I honestly thought less at one point that the production houses, the manufacturers would have come together and said, hey, this is like a union now, this is our health and safety. You know, kind of like our safety officers and this is what we're doing to make sure that we walk into these venues safe, for sure. Well, you know, yeah, very interesting comments. The blood machine, I'm sure that'll have value one day. And and how we survived COVID. And you'll have your machine next to you. And anyway Craig, what are your thoughts on on you know, what's going to be different that what are the inquiries we're getting from clients? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think Keith and Victor covered it. Well, I think what we're seeing is a rapidly changing landscape. You know, we were coming out of COVID where, you know, there is strict COVID compliance masks, you know, strict restrictions on gatherings to, you know, there's a lot of states that are opened up. We were at a live show last night, you know, probably for 4000 people in pods, but no one had masks on, you know? So there's definitely things opening up. We're seeing a lot of tour announcements. I think what we can look forward to is tour crews being required to be vaccinated. That seems to be a common theme across the board. I do think there's still going to be some elements of COVID testing for the back of house and the tour teams, but like he said, I don't know how sustainable that's going to be for the long term. And I would say the pragmatic part of me thinks that by late August, October, it's just going to be a vaccination card required, because I'm not sure it's going to make a lot of sense to to spend a lot of money testing the backstage crew and let 15 to 20,000 people in the front door with no masks and no testing. So, you know, and I say that very pragmatically, I think as as things go forward, I think I'm guessing by October, most of the venues around the country are full capacity and there is some sense of normalcy, you know, but I think that vaccination will be a requirement collectively. We've all said, and especially what you were saying, Craig, was that that there's a lot of different protocols and there's no standard. And whether we go to Miami or Minnesota, we might experience differences. But ultimately we've got to come up with a safe approach, because one of the challenges would be if one of the key positions a role in the show, maybe it's the front of house mixing engineer, or maybe it's the lighting console operator that if someone comes up and all of a sudden test positive or has any type of illness, how does the tour continue and how do you try to do it in a safe way? I think vaccines will do most of the work as far as eliminating people from getting sick, but, you know, these contingency plans are going to become part of the of the planning of the of the show and of the crew and all the little details. What I want to know is will the size and scale the show change from what it was previously? And I'm throwing this to Keith. So, Keith, will the show still be the same size, even though we may have different varying audience sizes? I think it's, you know, I think every everyone has been cooped up so long. I know the productions that we're working on, they're quite large, they're a little bit bigger. Everyone's stepping out because they're all feeling that that audience is going to be there. And I think in some way, from the creative side of it and the artist side of it, bigger is better. This time. I think people are going to deliver much more entertainment, much a little bit longer sets. So I believe they're going to go big or go home, because I think it's going to be a very well, we all know it's going to be a very crowded space and, you know, people are going to spend their dollar wisely to an extent and they'll maybe see multiple shows. That's fine. But I think the productions are going to be quite large. I know the ones that I'm working on are quite large, a little bit bigger than I expected. That's that is just awesome to hear. That is just an awesome concept. Victor, your thoughts on the size and scale of the productions going out? You see them saying the same size, getting bigger, getting smaller. What are your thoughts? Well, you know what? I think most of the A-list artists are going to maintain the production value that they're used to, and maybe they'll get bigger, you know what I'm saying? I believe the audience at this point, they're so star for entertainment that they wouldn't even notice at this point. Really. So it's really dealing with the artists perception of what it how they want to portray themselves. You know, it's ego. We all. Everyone has an eagle artist has a great ego. And and we just have to manage their expectations and their egos. And we we stay employed based on doing that. That's the hardest part. The easy part is getting the show up and down. That's the easy part. But dealing with the managing their expectations. So if an artist is coming out and they want to like if they if they get win of the production and Keith is doing, they're like, well, wait a minute, they're doing this. Oh come on. That's the way it is. They want to be bigger, better, greater. So to answer your question, it depends. It really depends on the artist. You know, like right now it's business is going to play a pivotal role in this as well because with the with the major promoters and stuff, you know, the the Live Nation, the, the, you know, the massive, the 800 pound gorillas that's out there promoting the show. They're taking they're being cautious too, because, right, if this thing shuts back down, then you know, the spotlight is on them. It's like, you know, it's like spotlight is on everybody. But from their standpoint, they're looking at the spotlight being on them. So they're not letting that money go probably as freely as they once did. So it's going to be a lot of things involved in an ego finance. Like I say, the easy part is for me and Keith to get the show up and down. Okay. For Craig to help packages show according to what we send forward to him, and for us to get it up and down. That's that's we you know, we do that on the way to show. So that's not a problem. It's managing the artist is going to be that's going to be key pretty much when you say Keith oh yeah 100% okay. All right I'm going to throw the question back to Craig. But I'm going to ask it slightly differently. I think there's so much demand that venues will have artists in there seven days a week, that people will book a Wednesday evening when they would normally do a Saturday or Sunday, you know, or a Friday night. I think the venues are going to be so busy as people are trying to navigate how where they can go and how do they map their tour. Craig, what type of inquiries are we getting and how would you respond to the idea of this, the size and scale of events? Yeah, I would say for the restart, I mean, we have tours going out as early as early July. And, you know, obviously we started confirming those a few months ago. And at the time they weren't sure what their capacity were. So they had a couple different gear budgets given on where the capacity might be when they actually go out. So that's challenge number one. You know, I think Victor talked to the idea that the promoters, AEG and Live Nation are passing on the risk to, you know, passing on the risk, sharing the risk, I should say, with the artists. So instead of big guarantees, you know, maybe there's back end deals if there's sell outs and stuff. But but I think the competitive nature, you know, as all these festivals pop up and they're looking for headliners. And, you know, I think that will drive pretty quickly back to the standard guarantees. I mean, there's only so many artists on the planet that can be a headliner at a big festival and pull in 50,000 plus people. And, you know, those people are always going to be in demand, you know, for the production side. I agree with Keith and Victor that it is a still somewhat of a competitive sport. If someone sees someone else out with a big production, they're going to want to step it up as well. I think that's always going to be the case. I think people are just trying to be mindful in this early stages, and I'll say the early stages are from July to December, trying to figure out where the capacities are going to be, making sure there's not some 1 or 2 shows that get shut down for some unknown reason. And I think people are being cautious. But I do think by October we're going to have a clear view of how that's looking. But I, I am guessing that it's going to look a lot more normal by October. So, so this question is to Victor and to Keith. Craig has already opined, he said we're going to be at 100% capacity in the fall. Do you guys agree? Disagree. Thoughts? You know what? This past weekend, Madison Square Garden had, what, 1012? I forget what it was, but it was a it was a it was like, wow. It's a great sellout kind of kind of kind of a crowd audience for for the basketball game. And they kind of lead the way, you know what I'm saying? So I see as we see them opening up and having more indoor sporting events that are near capacity, then I think it is safe to say that bar any unforeseen. Breakdown or, you know, the COVID rising, the levels rising again, I think we can get to close to 100% capacity. You know, I mean, there's a lot of variables involved and safety is the main thing. You know what I'm saying? But as we enter into I believe they'll figure it out this year, it'll be figured out in terms of how we can do it. And next year it's it's it's on. It's like it's going to be it's a, it's a, it's a it's crazy next year. But this year I think we will ease into it if things stay the way they are I think we'll ease into it. I think we will. Okay. All right. Keith, what are your thoughts? I think as long as we don't spike, I think in September you're going to see all these festivals crammed. I think it's going to be fall out on board. I think as a herd, the immunity all that will be in place. And I think the numbers will just speak for itself. But and then, you know, just I think it was yesterday I heard on the news that, you know, we might have a year of immunity on this thing. So once you have your shot so more people are running to go get those shots. So, yeah, I do, I think 100% I think we're going to be there, like I mentioned, and I don't think we're going to be looking back for a while. We have a quick question for Keith and Victor where, you know, obviously stuff has been rerouted and rerouted and rerouted as as the dates got pushed back and further. But now we're starting to see stuff go out. How on the projects that you're talking about are looking at, have you seen crazy routing and how much is that going to affect how you handle your busses, your trucks, you know, getting from show to show my side of it. We've already seen working with a couple vendors. There is the scarce bus shortage already for next year, so we've already secured two of the three tours. We're working on the third tour now, just getting management to sign off on it. But yes, that's but the routing isn't crazy. The smaller artist, it's going to be a little bit more of a work to get where they want to go, because it's a little bit more pinging through the different areas. But on the larger artists? No, not at all. I think it's pretty traditional so far. And then I have seen for part, well, I should say July, September of next year is the international route. And we saw the first look at that. And that was really standard to what we've done before. I think in terms of some things and I've seen several rounds. Okay. And then they've crashed. Okay. And it was, it was it started last year. I've been to the point where I'm so numb of of information coming from the agents and, and the camps. It's like, okay guys, once you figure it out, I think right now we're just getting to the point where people are starting to say, okay, so and from my from the clients that I'm dealing with. So okay, so we're going to put something together. What do you look like next year. What are you what they're asking my time frame. And it's like, I don't know. You got to let me know your time frame because I know it's I have several clients that are going to and I know it's going to happen. They're going to hit all at once. And I used to do the multiple client at one time back in the day. And I try not to do that anymore. And I get caught from time to time having to juggle. And it's like a really I want to do that. But, you know, I don't know. The routing is is going to be it's going to be fine. The cream of the crop, as Keith was saying, we're not going to have a problem dealing with the routing. The big boys. The agents are going to, you know, with the venues and everything that's affiliated with, with, you know, their relationship with the venues and knowing we'll be able to route it in a smooth and the B artist and the C artist, you're right. They're going to have to like, get in where they fit in, so to speak, and ping and pain and do all kind of stuff. But yeah, but you know what? There is a it's at high demand now to come with a real routing so you can secure vendors and bussing and everything. So right now it's, you know, all the, all the speculation of what we're going to do is get ready. You got to catch hell if we don't, we don't, you know, put it in stone right now. So it's I have a follow up question. Obviously, most of our US tours do cross the border into Canada, which sure, that I don't think that border is open currently for entertainment. What is your takes on that? Victor? Why don't you go first? Well, I mean, you're right. We oftentimes anytime we do US tour, we're crossing the border, you know, and and on the east coast as well as the West coast depending on what the tour starts. So it it changes starting up based on the routing. It's going to be interesting. Will it stop the tour? Of course not. All right. But you know, will it minimize that revenue stream by hitting those. Yes it will and it will affect the bottom line. So but you know what. We'll adjust accordingly. You know we improvise, adapt and overcome all the time. So the bean counters will do the same thing as well. You know what I'm saying. So we'll be fine. Yeah. All right. This question is to Keith. Keith, how about Europe? What are your thoughts? Is Europe in the cards? Yes, without a doubt. I think you you either end in London and or you start out in London. But yes, it's going to be. It's definitely in. I think those people are more than crazier than us sitting in their homes and ready to go. You know, I don't know about where they sit, you know, with their immunizations, but I assume that with everything that I'm seeing in the way of routing for Europe and even Russia that's on the table right now is, you know, they seem to be full board with it. So. Yeah. Cool. Victor, your thoughts on Europe? Yeah. No. Agree. And you know what? And quite often Europe is so much more together in terms of their festivals. And I mean, they're just like, you know, they get real laser, laser focused in on what is needed in order in order to facilitate the, the festivals and the tours and all that. So I don't see a problem. I see we get through America and Europe is definitely on the table. I mean, Europe and you know, the, you know, Australia, the South pack rim, which is going to be an internet next year. It's going to be crazy. And like I think towards the end of next year, September, October, we'll, we'll, you know, we'll we'll hit south. I mean we hit a not South America, but we'll hit within Australia and Orient and all that. I see it happen. Cool. Okay. All right. So my next question is to the entire group. Well, because there's demand for shows and the artists hit in the road. Will the ticket prices be outrageous? Like that too? I don't know. Craig, is that is that a yes? I'm going to. I would really be interested in hearing Keith and Victor's thoughts on that. I think I you know it. No, I don't think so. I think it's going to be a nice, even keel across the board. I don't see spikes. You know, you look at what a company. Let's just take any of them, right? They, you know, a lot of them. Sunset at some employees. And then they completely stopped and brought them back. So they managed their overhead and try to mitigate the amount of damage that they went through, as we all went through in our own companies. I don't see that one of them are going to come out or they're going to set a ridiculous price. I think they're probably going to pick up right where they left off. I don't see it because again, if this goes well and everyone's going to play the long ball, not the shortfall. So I think if we play the long ball, then we're going to pick up and be right where we were before. Got it. Victor. Yeah, I kind of I kind of agree. And not only that, but would it be bad, bad PR for Ticketmaster and some of these other ticket outlets to boost their their ticket price at this point? You would think that they would, based on the loss of revenue for the last 16 or 17 months. But then the fallback from that based on the loss of revenue wasn't just to, you know, the promoters and the industry at large. It was to the common folk who buys the tickets. So for you to put them in a position to where they would have to pay more for a ticket for something, that that wouldn't be a good look. And once you get that out on the internet now on social media, that could be brutal. So I think, like he said, I think it would be even I think now what they want to do it, of course they would want to do it. Would they do it? I would like to think cooler and more intelligent heads will prevail in making that that decision to do that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And, Craig, I know you ever thought. I just want to tell you this. A lot of people bought tickets and the shows were postponed. And they still have those tickets, right? Yeah. And so? So those tickets, you can't change the price after you've paid for the ticket. Yeah. Craig, what was your thought? Yeah, we're seeing a lot of sellouts, but I want to talk about a huge revenue driver on tour, which is meet and greets. And I'm really curious what discussion you with that or that, you know, take Victor. You're saying no. Yes. You know what? I think that's going to be a real that's going to be a very cautious. Ancillary move out there for the revenue stream. Right. A lot of artists are going to be cautious of that, okay. Because it's just exposure. Exposure is like dude, that's like, you know, I mean no one wants to do that. You know, and you're right, it is a it's a it's it's it's lucrative. It's a money there. Okay. But hell if you ain't that to, to enjoy that money then it's not good. Or if it shuts the door down, then it's like, you know, and you're talking about the artists. It's not like the crew's not like they want to meet the production manager. The lighting director? Come on. They want to meet the headline artists. They don't want to meet Victor and Keith. Come on. No. And Les. You know what? Don't take it any kind of way. They don't want to meet you either, bro, okay, I agree. Nobody wants to meet me. No, it's very, very interesting. Very interesting. Guys, I have one last question for you. And this is going to close our session out. And what is the one thing this goes to Keith. First, what is the one thing you're most looking forward to with the touring world returning to some form of normal? What's the one thing you can share with everyone? It's really simple. For me, it's the energy that you get from the audience as you're walking to stage. You just cannot the the hair on the back of your neck comes up. It's it's showtime. Everybody's done their job. I'm fist pumping everybody I can find and see if I haven't already. And it's just the moment of them just taking the stage. That's it man. Got it. Okay, Victor, your thought on that? You know what I mean? I know exactly as Keith said in the moment that will will like bring it to a complete like a moment like we got this is when I say, okay, how should I go, how I say, how can I go? And you hit a crowd and everything is happening. It's like, okay, you're right. Adrenaline is going and pumping and the artist is everybody. And we get that, you know, that's just that's come on. That's rewarding right there. That is the one surefire way to get the audience to scream. Is it turn the lights out? Because the anticipation of what's about to happen is starting. And and people all get all super excited and their iPhones turn on. And the next thing you know, bam, the lights go on and the artist comes out and it's showtime. And that is the moment. That's that. Right? The mic moment. That's it right there. Wow. Here we go. Hopefully they don't drop the mic that early yet. Yeah. Well for what we do and it's on the artists that artists after that for what we do. That's it. Now we want to, we want to we want to manage their expectations. At this point we got we got to keep working. But yeah guys, I want to thank you all so much. Keith and Victor and Craig. You guys are awesome. We all look forward to getting back to doing the things that we love, and touring is a big part of it. Going experience, the entertainment, being a part of it, being around it. I just just by Keith saying, we're going to high five everybody and the hair on the back of my neck goes up and, you know, the lights go down, Victor said. And people start screaming and and everyone gets back to work and we're having fun. And guys, I appreciate you joining me today. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead everybody. Great job. Thank you. Thank you Les.