THE WORLD OF RIGGING

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Welcome to The Road Ahead podcast. Today I have three amazing guests. First, I have Jeff Riedinger who's with Vegas Rigg. I have Dave Gittins with Atlanta Rig, and I have Erik Eastland with All Access. Guys, welcome to the show. Thank you. Yes. Well guys, today we're going to talk rigging. And I have three rigging experts to talk rigging today. And I'm going to throw this right to Erik. And I'm going to ask the question, why is rigging so important on a live show? Well, it's funny because the other two gentlemen are actually from rigging companies. We're staging in sets, but the interaction between rigging and sets starts in the morning and just keeps going all day throughout the show. So the importance of precision engineering, understanding mathematics, I mean, I because I started in lighting, I was one of the first in and one of the last out way back in a, I don't know, 78, 79. So I do have an appreciation for the rigors and what it takes to get it done. And it only got more complex over the years, and it just gets even more now with smart motors and all of the movement. So, you know, it's from from our perspective, we really do appreciate what it takes to get it right. And that means that that makes our job easier. So that's where I'm coming from. As far as why riggers need to be appreciated. So and now I'll throw it to Jeff, and Jeff, I know we've done, I don't know, countless shows together. Could you maybe opine on why rigging is important for a live show? Well, I guess first and foremost is the safety of the overall event. With hundreds of thousands of pounds hanging over both talent and audience. And, you know, in order to achieve that, you know, the rigging and engineering has to comply with the building and the venue, limit structural limitations. The coordination of all the elements of the show falls in the lap of the rigors because, you know, audio once it's mains here, but there's a video wall there, so you end up being a bit of a negotiator at times to try to get everybody to play well in the sandbox. And frankly, all of that contributes to the overall efficiency of the of the installation to meet both the scheduling and the budgetary constraints. And lastly, it's life. You don't get a second bite of the apple. It's live. No second bite of the apple is the quote of the day. Hey, Dave, maybe you could give us some of your ideas or thoughts on why rigging is so important for a live show. Well, I just I think a lot of times I see that the the rigging ends up setting the tone for at least, if not the entire show for the day. So if if that starts off in a shaky manner or things aren't happening the way people expect or the timelines, then it just kind of bleeds through the rest of the production. And that really has to be something that's that's going smooth right off the bat. You know, the whole idea of putting motors and flying things over people's heads. A lot of times when people ask me what I do is I tell them my answer is I just put big, heavy things over people's heads. That's just my short answer. But, you know, rigging has a whole sense of danger to it as far as risk and being. If it's done intelligently, then obviously those risks are generally mitigated. So in the rigging world and I'm going to throw this back, you know, to Eric and all, you're interfacing with rigging world type activities. What's the most important time spent in the rigging world? Is it before the show? During the show, and when you interface with rigging in all aspects, what is your thoughts? I think if we're talking touring, it's in the beginning, right at the concept of the whatever the gag is we're doing that we have to do our part. And that's all kind of based on our experience and our basic formatting and templating of how we design flying items. Then obviously engineering, at one point we're going to get with the rigor. And, you know, obviously they're going to want to see all the documentation. They're going to want to see all the cards, understand the product, understand how the gag works. So, you know, I think if it's if it's a production that is behaving right, everybody has to interact all the way up and, you know, like, like a lot of different departments in LD, they're all different. They all have different parts that they emphasize a little bit more than others. And I think that that works with riggers as well. I mean, we get some shows where the guy says, hand it over, I'll fly it, and that's it, and you'll get another guy that analyzes every molecule of the thing. And, you know, pretty much all we can do as a set company is provide a safe product that's engineered to the level that it needs to be, work as much in harmony as we can with production and make that work and step back and let him do his job. Got it. Let him do his job as the quote. So so, Jeff, your thoughts on the planning and preparation? The on site, where is the the most time spent making rigging successful? Well, I would have to echo Erik and say from where I sit, the time invested in pre-show planning. It provides the greatest return for the investment. But the coordinating with the department heads the gathering of the information from all the departments, the product specs for the elements that are going to be ring, you know, to determine the the equipment rigging needs, specifically including labor and the man hours, the drafting of the plans, the load counts, the coordinating of the timing for the installation of the elements as it progresses. You know, they're all pretty key to a successful and and cost efficient installation. Nothing costs a production company more than local labor. Standing around waiting for direction from a production rigger that didn't do his homework. So doing your homework is ultimately vital. And Dave, do you have any thoughts on this subject about, you know, where is the most time spent making rigging successful? Well, if we're talking about, you know, one offs especially, it's really about, you know, our experience has been sticking to the plan. You got you got a group of people that haven't really worked together before. And they're coming together for this like instantaneous team. So it's not it's not really like a tour where you have the time to sort out your A rig and your B rig and your, see, you know, what are you going to do when you get to blossom as a whole, sort of, you know, thing that you have to think about. But the but the touring side gets a little bit more repetitive. So it comes together a little bit easier. And I think a lot more calls can be made, you know, on site during the load end to, to smooth things out. You know, when you tour, you go to all these different venues on each venue has some subset of limitations. But I assume as the teams start to work together, they start to operate like, you know, like we're they're changing the tires on a race team and everyone kind of gets into the spirit of it. So I would imagine touring is a little bit different than doing one offs. So I'm going to throw this back to Jeff and ask this question, how important are the people and training for your rigging teams? Tell me about the idea of training. And then and then I'll get the other guys thoughts on that. Well, training and rigging certifications are certainly important to the safety of any event, as well as the successful execution as as production riggers or rigging consultants, where we find ourselves relying on local labor to perform safety critical tasks every day. So, you know, like hanging 100,000 pounds a year over talent, mechanical attachments to venue structures or operations of multiple hoists and all that. You know, they're they're very responsible jobs, in my opinion, the etc. certification process, there's a lot of merit there. It helped to weed out a lot of incompetence in the industry. But book testing and people will disagree. Doesn't qualify an individual as a solely doesn't qualify an individual as a competent rigor. There's no replacement for actual hands on training or years of experience. You know, we've all seen etc. certified riggers who have little common sense outside of their venue. And I mean, this is more prominent in like a venue exclusive type of place where you deal with a savvy and they have the rules. They don't know what the rules being, but those are the rules. Oh, sure. So so what you're saying is that you have to go out in the field and not only be a book smart, but you have to be street smart in the sense that you have to go and be able to have the some many years of experience to really qualify and be able to perfect your skill. Absolutely. Okay. Well, let me throw this now to Erik and say, Erik, you build all kinds of stages and flying elements in a show. And when you get to a venue and the rigors have to fly those pieces. How do you feel comfortable about their skill, knowledge and the people you're dealing with so that you understand that they're properly trained and that you don't have to worry about a lot of risk and how they're handling the goods that you've built. I think you know it for one, before you get to that first load in, if it's a show that can afford automation that's moving screens or scenery. They're going to hire that experience of a rigger. That and he's going to know that we have to talk. So that would be a month in advance or whatever the when we get on site, you get a sense of and this happened last summer on a big show where I, I was doing all the right things, interacting with designers, set company pyrotechnics and rigging. And in one case, I felt like I had actually just been played in the pre-production where that person knew all along, this is mine. I'll do it at what I want. So those are the things that I worry about when I feel like we're doing all of the right things up front. I need those to continue to to happen throughout the tour, because it's part of the plan and we incorporated it into our design. So when when somebody just shoots from the hip and makes a change, you know, the liability goes back on us. It doesn't sound fun. It's not fun. And then, you know, it opens the doors for accidents, which turned to lawsuits, which turned to raising insurance rates. It just has this ripple effect. It's crazy. And, you know, you're you're talking about 100,000 pounds like we did Gambino last year. And in a footprint of about 12ft by 60ft, we won 36 two tons because I think that we worked on that with you. Yeah. So at any given time, I could have upwards of 25,000 pounds in a ten by ten square. I'm exaggerating. But it was it was incredible. And we all know that, you know, now you're hoping the roof can hold that in that one. Oh for sure. Okay. Well let me let me throw this to Dave and say, Dave, how do you approach training and certification for your people? Well, if you were to ask me to put the, the, the best rigging team together that I possibly could, I would say that I don't know that the certificate would be really part of the criteria that I would look for experience for sure, is is always going to outweigh the certificates. But, you know, I think it opens the door for some, you know, unintended consequences, like, you know, a false sense of security for, you know, maybe show management if you're trying to figure out, you know, who is the right rigor for your show and you know who has the capabilities to do it. Got it. All right. So I'm going to throw this to Jeff, and Jeff... I want to know what have we learned during the last ten years from rigging incidents that didn't go as planned? What what what can we learn for future shows about what compromise is not to make or or maybe you could. I don't want to necessarily hear about a bad story. I just want to know about what have we learned to be smarter when handling goods that are heavy, that we're putting over people's heads during the last ten years? Well, personally, under promise and overdeliver, okay, as opposed to the opposite. And personally, I've learned that no is an acceptable answer to a client or it may not be acceptable to them, but it's the one they're going to get where there's any engineering or load issues that could jeopardize the safety of the event, you know, in an effort to execute something creative that is a little off the hook, we've had to tell clients that we couldn't execute a creative approach rather than risk the possibility of failing as something we didn't feel comfortable with. Oh for sure, I have. I know as a company we have the same philosophy. Anything that has any version of risk, we go get stamped drawings for engineering because, you know, if it's out of the ordinary that we want to make sure the load calques are done properly. But what I think I'm getting from you is, is that there's, there's at some point you have you just have to say, no, it's not safe. I think I think that's the kind of feedback I'm getting. We've, we've you're correct. There's, there's two very different kinds of bad to consider. The first one is if you're unable to execute the creative, you know, whether it's for overzealous technical or scheduling issues. And that's a factor is if you know, you know, the venues are booked so tightly that you know, you're pushing gear out from the previous show as you're pushing gear in for the incoming show because they booked them so tight, we often find ourselves with not enough time to really efficiently install something you know, and have enough tech time for it. You know, that's that's one you can you can take your lumps and live to fight another day from that type. But if you're looking at a situation where there's a potential or results, something that could result in personal injury or damage equipment, you know that you just have to put your foot down and say, no, okay, I'm going to say no. That's my new answer. No. Erik, could you opine on this subject in the last ten years for all the different kinds of stages that you've built and you've interfaced with riggers, what can you say that you've learned in the last ten years? That is something you could share, that everyone would know, that would make us our approach toward rigging better and flying all the different objects that you build. I think it's a mixture of a lot of things. Technology just keeps going every day. Screens get lighter than screens get heavier because as the resolution, you know, all that heavier. Yeah. But experience it's back to that conversation. In the last ten years, al of us have started to cycle in the next generations of our companies. Those people are now 30 years old. Maybe they've been with a company for 6 to 10 years. To me, all of them still feel still feel like their first day. And I have to incrementally get a good feeling about them. But absolutely, you know, I can get structural engineers out of university and you might as well. Wad it up, because we don't make anything that you learned in school. You need to learn how we do things. Custom is unique. Yeah. So I just think that in general, the dynamics of the changes over the ten years in automation, everything has just been one big giant learning experience. And it's going to keep going. And and right now with this, this holding pattern we're in, we all we have no idea what the future holds for what we're so used to and what we've built up to. Oh for sure. Okay, we're going to throw this to Dave, and Dave, over the past ten years, what can you share with us that you've learned from, let's say, rigging experiences that just didn't go as planned? Or or maybe we've learned from mistakes. I think Jeff kind of covered a lot of that. But, you know, I, I would say if you look at how many shows load in and out every single day and over the years, I don't think there is a lot of rigging necessarily that has gone bad for the most part. You know, I think it's I think for the amount of work and the and the volume and the situations and the, the, the speed that everything has to happen. It's, it's done a fairly good job saying safe. That is good to hear for sure. Okay. I'm going to shift gears. And this is to Jeff. Do you do production teams realize the value of competent riggers? The fact when you come in and you do all your calques and you do all your preparation, and when things just go smoothly, do they really see your value? I would say that for the most part. Yeah. And there's there's kind of two sides to this as well. For the most part, production teams, if you will, like, you know, the other department heads in a production, you're, you're, you're lighting engineers and audio engineers and blah blah, blah. They get it because most of them are. They were in on the planning and they understand what it takes to make it all happen. Production companies we've been dealing with for decades, they recognize the value of competent rigging teams, and they but they depend on that competency to to push the envelope as it pertains to the degree of difficulty. You know, some have changed their tune, you know, some changes are tuned a couple times and said, geez, do we really need to hire a production rigor to, to do this? And we're going to go another way this time. And often they come back. Say, well, you don't know what you have until you've lost it, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, a good example Les is like and you, you're, you're really the object this or your guys are sometime you know, some of them, the production companies, they, they, they witnessed the results in cost of labor savings or, or the ability to install the show in less time than they had allotted. So tech rehearsals and production teams, they get a jump on fine tuning, you know, that that's when they start appreciating, frankly, is when it affects the dollar. And a good example would be the the efficient insulation installation of a big LED wall, where the video guys are anxious to display the contents for clients or have the time to troubleshoot it. Jeff, we have done that so many times in Las Vegas together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When they fly around the room a few times the floating. Yeah. And that to, you know, some some producers and frankly you know sadly some producers are TDs. They never get it. And they consider the rigging department as a necessary evil. You know, we tell them we understand and move on. You know, hey, I think there's so much value in knowing that the expensive equipment, whether it be, you know, the the gear that Erik builds, the stage sets, is it my expensive LED walls or these massive sound rigs or these lighting rigs? It is. So there's so much how do I say sanity? Just knowing that they're confident people, putting that in the air. And the outcomes could be so different if you don't have level of competency. You know, I want to ask this, Dave, could you add any thoughts on this as far as do people realize the value of your competency of your team's? Well, there's there's really almost two different lines of thinking when it comes to it. You have show management that basically just wants to hire a rigor directly. And, you know, that's just the way they've been doing it. And they want to continue to do it that way. And then you have show management that wants to have a company to kind of separate that out from the rest of production. So it really comes down to those bad rig days, you know, who's had them, what experience, what are they trying to do to to to fix that? I would say that, you know, our experience always is, you know, customers are pleasantly surprised when there's a rigging company involved versus, you know, a singular person, you know, you could just do a lot more. There's a lot more support on the office side and the engineering side and, and all of that. It doesn't lay on one guy. Well, I will say this, a lot of venues you go to, you're stuck with whoever the rigging company is inside. And a lot of times people bring in production riggers on purpose because there's not a level of trust that exists between whoever is going to show up to do the work and mitigating that risk with the idea that, you know, you have to deliver a successful show. And I think, I think it's super important. And on that subject of mitigating risk, I'm going to throw this to Erik. Erik, you built some enormous scenic pieces, and I can think of maybe one of those big football games we worked on together where you built a stage or something like that. But but how do you approach mitigating risk in what you do? And we're talking about weight and hanging and pounds and flying and and how does your approach work directly with with a rigging team? I know you've worked directly with Jeff on projects and, and how do you work together to try to mitigate risk experience? If we're talking Super Bowl, let's say for right now, you know, we've already set our template for pretty much the structure and the wheels. All the stadiums are happy with it, so don't mess with it. And then then we run into load issues on the ground, not in the air, but in situations where we have flying systems like Katy Perry was Phoenix, on and on and on. There's always weight issues. Steve Thomas handles the rigging over at Super Bowl, and I'm pretty sure lantern rigging does most of that for Steve. And it's crazy the kind of stuff that he has to deal with with canopies, eyelashes, moving ceilings. It's insane. So, let him do his job. I'm going to go right back to that. I tell him what I need, and I let him do his job. Okay? I like the letting him do his job. Okay. Dave, what is your thought on what you do to approach mitigating risk whenever you look at a production? Well, you know, it comes down to, you know, for us anyway, it's just it's all the pre-production that we're putting together. And, you know, having having the good plan it, you know, you really don't need a ton of that on a lot of instances, you know, for rigging. But if you're doing a, you know, a WrestleMania, for example, in, in in Dallas at AT&T Stadium, it was 512,000 pounds of lights and sound and video and, and hui. So there's there's a lot of different parts and pieces to get together for that. But it does come down to, you know, the confidence in your team that comes down to the, you know, how well did you prep stuff? I mean, you know, rigging isn't, you know, especially well known for, you know, a lot of pre-production or prepping things in a way that a lot of other, you know, like sound video or, or, you know, it's not really prepped in the same way. So we try to bring a lot of that organization to it to make sure that, you know, we're feeling good and that does mitigate the risk considerably. Got it. All right I'm going to throw this to Jeff. Jeff I want to know how do you deal with any crew doing something unsafe? And I know with rigging there's really not a lot of leeway. It's either safe or it's not safe. And so what is your approach to either experience or seeing that? Or what have you told your teams to do when they're out in the field and somebody tries to do something what you deem unsafe? Well, all of our guys, all the Vegas rig guys that are production riggers are on any project. Their primary focus is on safety going up, coming down. Operating show doesn't matter if you see something that is beginning to look unsafe, you stop and you take either take the local guy. It depends on the circumstances. Less. Sometimes we'll be in a place where we've got it's a clip and go ceiling. You know, where you're just clipping into hooks and it's savvy guys, and I'm just using them as an example. And even though they look at it as safe, when I know when I look down the road at what's eventually going to hang there, I know it's not safe before they know there's going to be a problem. So so anticipating, anticipating. Yeah, you got to stay ahead of that curve and to and very delicately without insulting anybody's intelligence. Say, hey, listen, I know that you think what you're doing right now is okay, but you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So let's rethink this. Let's stop right now, and I'll fill you in on more of the plan, and we can mitigate any potential unsafe situation. Got it. So, Erik, have you had a situation where your team has built some apparatus flying things and and Uganda situation where you went? I'm not really sure if this is safe. And you, you pushed the as Jeff says, the stop button. No. Fortunately. And not many would around me, but I would bring up there's things where maybe people could be under the impression that rigging had an accident, but it's not really rigging. I've had a situation. I think it was Swedish House Mafia where I had built some stuff for them, but that's on this particular show. They didn't use my stuff. They had used just some stuff that the lighting company put together and the whole screen just unzipped out of the ceiling. I don't know if you guys remember that. I think it was in Florida. And, you know, a lot of people thought it was the rigging and it wasn't. It was just you. You put the wrong component into the mix, and they thought they were doing something right, and it was absolutely wrong. And I would go over to Sugarland. You know, that's a classic case of over the years and staging. And this is rigging too, because it's motors and steals that, you know, back in the day when it was Brown Mountain take you know take your pick. But these guys everything was monstrous. Turnbuckles cables everything giant. And you get it up there and nothing's going to knock it down. Well over time all the James Thomas stuff comes in, all the light duty stuff and all of a sudden lighting companies become staging companies, but they have no experience. They have no reference point. They, you know, so it becomes a very dangerous rigging situation, even though it's ground support. And in my personal opinion, I think if mountain, Stagecoach or Brown were at that particular festival that the Sugarland accident happened, I don't think it would have happened because I just think they weren't. They were not. The overall situation was bad, but they just they just had an accident waiting to happen. I gotcha people don't know. Production doesn't know. Production counts on departments to come prepared. I got you prepared for sure. So I want to kind of ask the last question. I'm going to run around the horn here and we'll start with Dave. Dave, what are you most proud of the event that you guys have worked on, that that was probably one of the things that you're most proud of. Well, this year in March, we were we were scheduled to do WrestleMania in Tampa and Final Four in Atlanta at Mercedes-Benz Stadium. So, you know, those those two things, you know, every year are kind of something that we always look forward to. And, you know, especially WrestleMania. It's just one of those things. It's over the top over the it's yeah, there's just so much there's so much that has to go into it. And they have so much time to do the show that they really do jam. A lot of production. Got it. Jeff, what are you most proud of the event you've worked on? It's it's hard to single one out. And personal preference to me is always a production that has a Broadway flair to it. So little spectacle. Yeah. I mean, you know some of the and Dave is familiar with this, some of the State Farm events that we've done over the years that are amazing, where there's like 12 full blown Broadway production cast numbers with things moving. I mean, those are the ones we're most proud of because and the we're most involved with them because a lot of the stuff that's happening is very much rigging related. You know, like flying the people and flying the sets. And I have to say that the large corporate events, we call them book shows, the Broadway style book shows are the ones that we're most proud of. Got it. And finally, last but not least, Erik, what show would you say you're most proud of that you've worked on? And you've used all the things that you've built Super Bowl in general. But this year was a Hail Mary because we had weather issues, grasses use time issues, all sorts of issues. And it was the only time that because I don't stay on the field for the show, and I had to go up an escalator, that was the longest escalator ever, and I prayed the whole way up from my boys because we were not prepared, in my opinion. We just didn't get the time. And that show came off without a hitch. So I was pretty proud of everybody. Well, guys, I want to thank Jeff, Dave and Erik. You're all awesome people and I thank you for your opining on your thoughts, for all of the discussions regarding reading and staging and keeping our world safe. And you guys, thanks for being on the show. And this is Les Goldberg on The Road Ahead. You guys take care. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you guys. You know, as I reflect back on the three professionals, Jeff, Dave and Erik today that I was speaking with, I realized that ultimately rigging is such an important element of delivering a great show and to value the preparation and to execute a great show. Rigging is just one of those components you have to have and you have to have competent people. So here's salute to all the competent riggers out there that allow us to deliver shows every day. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead.