TODAY'S LABOR CHALLENGES

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have four amazing guests. I have Tom Stimson, who is the president of the Stimson Group. I have Gabe Solomon. He's the president of MertzCrew. I have Steve Holderman. He is the CEO and co-founder of De Novo Works. And I also have Mike Finocchiaro, and he is the president of Big Fin Productions. Guys, welcome to the show today. Thanks for having us. Hey, good morning. Morning. Thanks, Les. Thanks, Les. Guys, today's show is dedicated to something that I think is one of the most important issues in the industry for events right now that every company in the world is facing. It is the crisis of labor. And today, while we have an industry expert, Tom Stimson, and we also have basically the rest of the guests are all companies that run labor providers. And we are so interested in hearing what you have to say, your thoughts on so many subjects that are associated with labor. So I'm going to start off with Tom Stimson and ask the question, what are your thoughts on the world of technical labor for both live and virtual events? Where do you think we're at right now? I think the idea that it's a crisis of labor is accurate. But if we're honest with ourselves, what we have is a crisis of sales. And that we quit selling beyond our capacity and beyond our resources. We all saw this coming and we should probably slap ourselves for ending up in this situation. But having said all of that, it is still a crisis any way that you look at it. You know what? I'm a fortuitous salesperson. So I always want to sell in the industry what we can do. But I think people are measuring or finding their capacity limits or I think even more so, everyone's afraid of failure. And we're excited to be able to sell again. We're excited for the demand. We're excited for these awesome jobs that we're getting. And we put our 2019 hats back on and plowed ahead. And then we forgot to put our pants on. You know, that might be a tweet time for the day. We forgot to put our pants on. You know what? I'm going to go on, move on to ask the same thought. Mike, from a big fan, Mike, could you tell me where do you think we're at the world of technical labor for live and virtual events? What are your thoughts? I think that we're probably at about 60% of where we need to be right now. I think we lost a lot of people to full-time jobs and things over COVID. I think that people realized that they could have a life outside of this production world that we all live in. And the diehards that stayed with it and stuck in here, you know, they're definitely taking the brunt of what's going on right now. I mean, like you said, there's a lot of sales happening. People are kind of doing the grab and trying to take everything they can right now. I think it changed us all realizing that our world could shut down. So everybody's really taking everything that they can get to kind of nest egg some stuff there. And I think what we need to do now is just start adding to our crews and building our crews, training people up to try to get the numbers up to where they need to be. I mean, I feel like with this onslaught of work we all have, we don't just need to get back to 100% where we were before. We need to get to 120% of where we were before to try to keep up with all the extra shows that are happening now and be able to stay on top of this stuff. So it's really in our hands to start vetting people out and finding the right personalities and training the next generation of technicians to be able to support what's going on in our industry. Duly noted. We will definitely get into that more. I am going to throw the same question to Gabe Solomon from MertzCrew. Gabe, where do you think we're at with technical labor and crew these days? Yeah, I'm kind of in the same place. If you think about it, every industry and every trade has a pyramid of development, right? You've got the peak of the pyramid, which is where your elites are, and there's always going to be an attraction and a pull for those folks. That's where a lot of the earning potential is very high. That's where your experience really comes up. Then you've got that middle to high layer. Those are your leads, your people with a lot of experience. They're committed to the industry. They develop themselves. They're the backbone of what we do. But the base of the pyramid is where we're having our issues. With the pandemic, we weren't bringing in those people at the base of the pyramid to refill those spots. Now that we find ourselves where demand has skyrocketed, those higher positions have been pulled up. We're delivering those great things, but the base of the pyramid isn't coming in fast enough. That's where we need to refill that. As freelancers have exited, and frankly, as some of them are just getting completely worked, there's been an opportunity for young folks to step into higher positions. But really getting into that entry level that, hey, is this the right AV industry for me? We need a big, big influx in that area to make sure that we can sustain ourselves over the long term. Got it. The quote of the hashtag is sustain ourselves over the long term, and I would add in our industry. Steve Holderman, what are your thoughts on the world of technical labor for both live and virtual events these days? I think everybody brought up a good point of having enough of a break that people went out and looked for other careers. Now we're feeling all the events coming back at once. I don't know about your guys' market, but especially in the Pacific Northwest, what we're seeing is a lot of the large-scale events all happening at the same time. When you're going out and trying to find the labor and fill those positions, you're seeing other large-scale events sucking up the labor as well. So it's a matter of lead time to get the right people into the right positions. We had quite a bit of a luxury of an abundance of people in the career field that have now left, that there's still going to be live production going on. And we need to be able to get those right people into those positions at the right time and not have the luxury or recognize that we don't have the luxury of waiting till the last minute to get them. Got it. Well, the quote on your hashtag would be is not waiting till the last minute. And if all of our clients were so savvy, they would make their decisions and confirmations well in advance. So all the people that provide that technologies would have time and ample number of days to get their crews assembled. And sometimes people are not such great planners. I'm going back to Tom. And Tom, what happened to this big pool of people? Where did they go? And are they going to come back to the industry? Are you finding them have exited permanently? And I just want to know what your thoughts on where did everyone go? Yeah, it's, there's a lot of answers to that question. I mean, Gabe touched on it. It's the pyramid of development. And we lost the bottom of the pyramid, because entry job level jobs weren't always, you know, paying career paths. So not having those, and we took the people from the middle, and they're now at the top. But the rest of the folks, you know, there was a big shift from the traveling ballroom technicians, whose work vaporized, and some of them were able to adapt and pivot over into me and the virtual production crew, which meant they could work from home, which frankly, didn't suck. And a lot of them don't want to stop doing that. I'm one of them. I love the fact that I don't travel anymore. So I think you have a big shift of people of a certain age, who have after being on the road for 30 or 40 years ago, hey, this is pretty cool. And those production roles that they're working remotely, don't I mean, how are we going to those people were doing a technical position in a ballroom before, who's going to take over that job. So all those people are working, they're all busy as they can be. And they're doing more shows back to back because they don't have to travel. And they're digging it. So I think it's just the change in the landscape about how am I going to live my life and what's going to make me happy and meet my needs. And it was a wake up call for a lot of people that maybe there's something better. Oh, my goodness, something better than going to a nice on air conditioned ballroom. You know, in a nice hot environment. What could be better than going to Orlando in July? You know, you get free humidity. Okay. So I'm going to throw the question to Gabe, who's in Orlando today. Gabe, what are your thoughts on where all the people went? You know, are they are they out of the industry permanently? Are there any coming back? I agree with Tom, I don't think they've necessarily left the industry. I think they found a different way for them to deliver the services they do within the industry. At that higher end, I think you still have and we're still seeing a lot of those those mid level folks have taken those leads and are moving up into those higher roles. And they're willing to travel because now this basically is a promotion for them. It's a way for them to increase the amount they're being paid and the opportunity and their leadership. That's the it's those younger folks, that that's going to be the opportunity, right? That's the opportunity for them to step in to step up and to see that opportunity for them. Conversely, it's also up for the AV companies to learn to trust those young folks, they're going to make mistakes, they're going to learn on the job, and they are going to have some challenges along the way. I think the really successful AV companies are going to be the kids. And I think that's how we're going to get into that next layer of these kids backfilling this great need that we have right now. Gabe, I completely agree with you. Same question to Mike. And Mike, you brought up the idea of indoctrinating the next generation. You know, what are your thoughts on this? These technical people, all the people that work for us in our industry, you know, are they coming back? Or, you know, what happened to them all? I mean, I think it is out there. The guys that have been in this for the long run have moved into other positions, office positions, things like that. They found a spot for themselves. The ones that were just kind of halfway in it, halfway out of it, it seems like they left. They found some other things. I mean, there are people that I talk to that I've known for years in this industry. They're happy now. They started a coffee roasting company or some online thing. So many different things that they've done that we would have never thought about that they got forced into. You know, we have to make a move right now. We have to do something to survive. So, they found a different avenue to go down. So, I think one of the key things I just heard here is being able to mentor these people and having, you know, kids are going to make mistakes. The key right there is finding those older trained people, those experienced people that can be on site there, even if it's one of them to keep an eye on it. That's the trick right now because a lot of those people have either left or moved into a position where they're not on the show floor anymore. I think it's the balance of finding those people that are willing to go out there and be the adults on site and kind of keep an eye on everybody and make sure that things are going okay and be able to know how to react if something does fall to the wayside. So, my question is to Steve. My question is, are kids coming out of school and are they dreaming about doing, you know, AV live events, virtual events? Are you finding that? Yeah, I am still finding that. The new generation that's coming in, they're eager and they're hungry for sure. And it's a matter of networking and reaching out to the established contacts that you have and seeing, okay, do you recognize anybody that has talent that's worth bringing in? If you do, do you mind sending a text message and making an introduction for us? And then vetting them out as much as possible and then bringing them to the table. And then, you know, again, having the older generation, training the younger generation because this is ultimately how the majority of our industry works is that we're all reaching out to each other and learning as we go. As far as career fields, I think Art Institute, at least in this area, was kind of feeding the industry from a lot of the newer people that maybe went to a studio program or was studying photography and they ended up trying out some AV positions and then they're like, I can make a career out of this. But there's other schools as well, but yeah, I'm absolutely seeing it. So on that note, back to Tom. Tom, do you think it's our responsibility of people from an industry to actively promote the next gen and to make that a like a pivotal part of our businesses to be reaching out to schools and colleges and promoting what an awesome industry this could be for you as a career? Of course. I mean, this is mission critical, therefore it is strategic, therefore it's not optional. It's never been optional. We just have to do it differently. I'm an old theater person. I grew up doing theater. I thought I was going to be a professional theater person. I ended up in corporate AV and I'm grateful for it. But if you look at how professional theater works, they've been doing this for two millennia. We have a model we can follow for doing this. These kids coming out of college or trade school need a mentorship program, they need apprenticeship programs, and we have to sell our jobs differently to make room for them and we have to manage our business differently to make room for them. And here's the good news. We've already done this before. This is how we worked in the 90s. When we converted to video and corporate events started getting really complex and less sort of buying massive switchers, all of a sudden we had to bring a bunch of AV slobs that were running slide projectors, and now we're running $100,000 video projectors. We've done this before. We can do it again. It's the same process. We just got to buckle down and do it. Got it. Mike, what is your thoughts on this? I have some very good points on that. I have a 17-year-old son that's kind of following in the footsteps here. What I'm realizing now is a lot of the kids, a couple of ways that we are going after that kind of recruiting for the next generation. A lot of these kids love video games, right? They love to play in that digital world and I think turning them on to things like Previz and stuff like that blows their mind. They're in. I mean, they're instantly hooked. They want to know more. A lot of the technology with lighting, with video, with everything that we have going on right now, it's something that appeals to their base instinct, right? What they grew up in. They grew up in that world where I did and I don't feel like I'm looking at all the gray hairs here. I don't feel like you guys did either. You know, these kids grew up with this technology and it excites them. So that's one angle that we're playing. The other angle is I've been going, so we're doing the theater schools. I'm also going after sports teams and things like that. I mean, these are guys that love to work out, right? They love to exercise. I've been putting them on these crews, building stages. They like carpentry. They like building these big structures, things like that. Also schools like trade schools that teach construction, they think it's just a little bit cooler to be building a stage for Metallica than it is to be building, you know, whatever they're doing in their shop class there. And that's really given us like a tap into that vein there of the next generation, literally. I mean, these kids are 17, 18, 19 years old and we're getting a really good influx of them. And it's all about the training, right? I mean, they have the desire and I'm seeing it. I mean, they're seeing what a industry this is and they look at guys like us and go, wow, you can succeed. You can have a really good life if you just apply yourself. And they're really kind of getting the bug, you know, and I'm seeing that a lot out here, especially in Vegas. I'm really playing to that whole market of trying to get these kids in for training and bring them out onto the show. And it seems to be working out quite well. So this question is to Gabe. Gabe, what are the toughest positions right now to find? Okay. So obviously as a labor resource, I'm sure the phones or the computers are not stopping right now. What are you finding the toughest roles to find? Yeah, it's honestly, it's those entry level and then sort of that lower level position. So everything from stagehands to breakout techs to kind of the supporting roles, your A2s and whatnot. And where that's coming in like I said, those people that had previously done that before have had the opportunity to elevate themselves and move up. And where that gap is now is those entry level folks coming in. I love hearing the ideas about where to bring in these folks because I do think, you know, that's going to be the key to address that. And another area I think that would be worthwhile for AV companies to tap into would be these young veterans coming back that maybe did one enlistment. They're used to being part of a unit, a team. They have some technical knowledge. And then with some direction, I think you would find a really great resource for folks that would love doing the things that we do. Yeah, you nailed it. That's 100%. Same thing. We're going after them, the reserves. They love it. Some of these guys are just looking for something to do and they find this and I see their eyes light up when they're on a festival site going, wow, I can do this. I can run this. I'm with the crew. I mean, absolutely. The veterans have been a big asset for us as well. Yeah, it's discipline, but fun. I get paid to do this. This is fun. I don't know if I would, you know, I would have, I would do it whether I was getting paid or I need to get paid. Okay, Tom, I want to ask you the same question on the toughest positions to find. Do you have any thoughts on that? I don't because I'm not firsthand in it, but I will say what I'm hearing is, is very much finding entry-level people. It's interesting because I thought my, just my general instinct was that it would be the super high-end experienced people that run spiders and A1s and the LDs. That would be very hard to find because, you know, that level of experience and you want to have that leadership in that department. I have a theory about why it's so hard to find the entry-level people is because we've taken our mentors and we've put them in a show position and we've locked them down and they should be floaters. They should be people out there. There should be one extra person on every crew whose job it is to mentor the new people. They can't be locked down. They can't be in a show position and we don't sell that way. We don't think that way. We don't plan that way, but that's how this works. If you want, if you want entry-level people, you need to give them a, you need to give them a mentor and you've got to carve that out of these experienced people that you're slamming onto shows back-to-back. Interesting. We had a show, I want to say about three weeks ago, where we had to have a backup person. So in the event somebody were to get sick in COVID, we had that backup crew member that was, that could do a few different positions. It seems that we're finding that the COVID bug thing seems to have been going away and as masks are being eliminated. This question is to Mike. Mike, do you think people are ready to travel today? Are you think our crews are road ready? They've gotten back in it. Are we ready to hit the road, so to speak? We're a little rusty. Okay. That's what I'm going to say right now. That's the most honest that I can put it. I see them- Put a little 10W40 on it and move it around a little bit. Shake it off. I'm guilty of it too. When we first came back, I'm going to say last October is when we started getting really busy. Just little things that were muscle memory before were getting forgotten. I've seen production managers going, oh my God, we need coffee for these guys. Just little things that are just getting left to the wayside. I feel like once people start moving again and get out there, maybe the first couple of shows are going to be rough, but it all comes back. I feel like within a few shows, we're back to where we are and people are going to be ready to rock. The road's moving right now. I'm seeing more of my friends come through Vegas than I have obviously in two years. People are coming back through. The later it is in the tour, the more loose things are and the more efficient they are. I think we're ready. We just got to get back in shape a little bit. That's all. Got it. Same question to Steve Holderman. Steve, are our crews ready to hit the road again? Are you finding that? Yeah, I think Mike brings up a good point. A year and a half break almost just about for everybody. I'm seeing a lot of people that you're like, really? Come on, man. You missed that. But I'm also using the talk track from the frustration of the technicians as well as anybody else of, hey, we're all a little rusty. We all got to get back into the game. We all know how to do it. The frustration just needs to be managed. I think if we can control the narrative there that everybody's going to feel good about it and get back into the swing of things and absolutely be road ready if they're not already and on the road. Got it. Okay, this question's to Gabe. Gabe, how are we dealing with keeping crew members safe and dealing with potential COVID issues? It seems like so much of what we do is driven by the news and the news had Dr. Fauci on it every day and talking about COVID. As soon as Dr. Fauci gets off the news, it seems like our industry turned off. And now, what do you think the temperature of clients are as far as dealing with COVID, whether it's vaccinations and continued safety issues and I don't know if it's backstage social distancing? Are you seeing anyone with specific requirements as to vaccinations or masks or what are you experiencing? Yeah, our domestic clients or our US-based clients, they're pretty much reacting the same way that people did yesterday on the airplanes when they found out they could take their masks off. They took them off and immediately went out. So, I think you're going to see, I think people are used to, hey, you're just going to, COVID is, we're living with COVID. COVID is something that people are going to catch and you really can't avoid it. I think people are a lot more upfront if they're not feeling well. They pull themselves out faster than, you know, the old days of just soldiering on. I think you're seeing people being more responsible from that perspective. I will say our international clients are still, they're still experiencing that higher level of tracking and testing requirements. We're seeing that start to go down a little bit as well, but within the domestic side, I think we're seeing people are recognizing it's just something you live with. And even to what you mentioned where you were bringing in backups, I think that's probably the biggest worry right now, particularly on some larger crews where the worry is, you know, one or two people in the middle of the show all of a sudden aren't going to be available because now they've tested positive. So, it's really more just thinking about that, you know, do you have, you know, a couple on the bench that you can pull in quickly? But within the U.S., I think people are back. People are where they're ready back full. So, back to Tom. Tom, what do you think a producer's COVID strategy should be? If you were a show producer, you're listening to this podcast, what would you think is there would be an effective strategy for them to deploy on their crews? Well, I mean, the first thing is you need to ask your suppliers what their strategy is going to be and then decide if you need to amplify it. But if I were an event producer, I would be looking at my supply chain guys saying, you know, who's my floater? Who's my extra person? Let's put one more show position on here than we think we need so that we've got a swing person. Let's break this job into two because if one of them falls, that job is easier to fill than the combined job. We create sometimes these jobs that fit the talent of our team rather than the talent of the event community. So, we don't need any overly specialized roles on jobs if we can avoid it. So, I want my crew to be as replaceable as possible to protect the integrity of the job as we move through. Smaller jobs, more people, smaller roles, and a buffer. That is, that makes a lot of sense, Tom. That was a very good wisdom that you've shared with us today. This question is to Mike, and Mike, do you think the clients realize the significance challenges associated with labor right now? Do you think clients are savvy enough to understand that what everyone's facing or do you think they just ignore it and say, you're just going to find the right people? It's an absolute mix, okay? I've dealt with a lot of shows in the past few months here where you have your seasoned professionals that get it 100%. They absolutely understand what's going on. They roll with the punches. They understand that we all need to just keep cool heads and get things done, and I've seen other clients lose their minds over things that just don't even matter, right? I mean, I had a call once. It was 120 people, right? I'm going to say this is back in maybe November when people were still coming back for a loadout. We had 116, and the production manager's head spinning, and I'm thinking, you're going to get it done. These are great numbers right here. You should be celebrating that you have 116 people, and those are the kind of people that I think are just making it more difficult to get through this stuff because it just sheds kind of a bad vibe right on the whole show. You keep positive and do what the seasoned professionals are doing and just keep moving forward. Make the best of whatever situation you're in right there and have a successful show. Have a positive show, and that's what I would put out there to any potential production managers that are listening to this. You got to just roll with the punches and make the best of what you have right now until we are back to that 120% that we need to be. So, this is my final question. I'm going to ask everyone the same question. I'm going to start with Gabe. Gabe, when is the light at the end of the tunnel for this challenge that we're all facing? When will we be overcoming the labor shortage, in your opinion? Maybe you could give us a time and a date so we can reflect back on this podcast in so many months and days, and we could say you were a genius or maybe not, but maybe you could opine. When is the light of the tunnel for this labor crisis going to be over? I will be very, very specific. There isn't one. Okay, there's no light. This is an ongoing thing. It's an ongoing cycle. It's a constant replenishment. It's a constant growth. It's one of those things, you know, let's hope the last two years is something that we are never going to have to deal, this group is never going to have to deal with again, where the world basically comes to a stop. As we look forward, and as we look forward from a continuous standpoint, it has to be constantly replenishing itself, constantly renewing, constantly bringing people in. And I think once we really, really embrace that youth movement, bringing those youth in, I think we're going to see a big, big step forward. But the short answer is never. It's always reminding ourselves that we have to constantly be refreshing the pool that's coming in. I wish I could get super excited about the answer that you gave me. I was ready for a date and a time, maybe an hour, but same question to Steve Holderman. Steve, when is the light at the end of the tunnel? You know, I think from a lot of the feedback that I'm getting, people who have left or taken other jobs, they're waiting until the fall or winter, and they want to see what's going to happen. Is there going to be other mass mandates? Is there going to be shutdowns? Can they leave their full-time job to do this full-time again? I think once we have the reassurance that they can make a living and not have to worry about it, or the world's going to stop, we're going to see a big change and an influx of people. When can I put on my calendar is your suggested date? You know, let's make it through the fall and winter, and then we'll talk next spring. Okay, so you're thinking fall and winter. Okay. Yeah, I think we need to get through that, and then we'll build some confidence. And I think everybody needs to build up that trust a bit and be able to go, okay, there's not going to be another shutdown. There's not going to be a sudden stop in events. I got you. And be able to build that trust. Mike Finn, it's your time to opine. All right, I got you here. I got you here. Give me a date and a time, please. I'm trying to plan my life. I got one for you. I got a date and a time. So let's roll on this. I want to expand on a little. So I feel like we started over again. I think somewhere between the two to five years is a sweet spot. I mean, anybody who knows what they're doing now is actively recruiting and training and trying to get people up to speed. So I think within two years, those green newbies there are going to be able to at least stand on their own two feet. And I think within five years, they're going to be at that level where they can actually start, you know, playing a major part in the industry again and take their career somewhere. So if I had to nail it down, I'm going to say it's going to be June 5th, 2026. Goodness gracious. I'm not sure. I haven't got my schedule planned for that day yet. At noon. At noon. Okay, well, I want you to know I'm going to start planning accordingly. Tom, will you bring us home as to when the light at the end of the tunnel is in an analytical way so we all can grasp it? All right, I will do my best. It's the wrong question. Right? It's the light at the end of the tunnel is oversupply. So if we're going from shortage, the other end of this is oversupply and they're both bad situations. 2019 and before we were in oversupply, we had too many people on staff. There was a lot of freelancers, a lot of people selling on price and our industry was extremely seasonal, huge peaks in demand, huge valleys, and it created a decimated labor market, undervalued, wasn't a good thing. We need balance. Stay in the tunnel. That is awesome. Stay in that tunnel. Do not get out of that tunnel. Reduce your staff. Outsource more. Create career paths and keep this balance going as long as possible. We do not want to leave this. We want to get better at it. You know, those are great thoughts, Tom. I appreciate those actually. It's a very good contrarian view to everyone else's and actually it makes a whole bunch of sense. Guys, I have to thank you all for a very inspirational and a little perspirational discussion on the crisis of labor and what a great, interesting podcast for the audience to hear your viewpoints. I want to thank Steve from De Novo, Gabe from MertzCrew, Mike Finocchiaro from Big Fin Productions, and Tom Stimson, of course, from the Stimson Group. You guys are amazing. I hope to see you in the ballroom somewhere, somehow. This is Les Goldberg on The Road Ahead and everybody, great job. Thank you so much. Thanks, Les. Thanks, Les. Bye. Have a good day. Thanks, guys.