WHAT KEEPS US HOOKED ON LIVE EVENTS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have three amazing guests. I have Miles Kapper. Miles is a stage manager. I also have Tony Castrigno. He is a scenic designer and creative designer for Design Contact. And I have Daniel Walls. He's the executive vice president of creative services for Media Loft. Everybody, welcome to the show today. Hi, what's going on? That's right, we can't just nod. We have to actually say something. This is an audio podcast, everyone. So all of your looks, they can only imagine how wonderful and beautiful you look. Today's podcast is dedicated to the subject of why I am in the live events industry. And among this group, including myself, we literally have decades and decades and decades of experience having done literally, I'm going to go with tens of thousands of events when you think about our careers and how many different events that we've all touched in some way. And I decided to do this podcast about how we all got in this business and why we're in it. And how did that work out? So I am going to throw the first question to Tony. Tony, what is it about the live events business, and I'll add theatrical and Broadway and all the other things that go with that, that keeps you excited and wanting to keep doing it? No two days are the same. No two days are the same. It's always a challenge. It's always different. It's always, even from the most routine show, then there'll be the people that you meet and everybody's new. I think it's an exciting experience to see audiences respond to what you're doing. And it's new. And in the events business specifically, it included global travel and new faces, new environments. And in the theater business, it's a new audience every night with a different response to what you're doing every single day. Well, that's a very thoughtful answer. Thank you. Miles Kapper, would you give me your same answer to the question of what is it about the live events business that keeps you wanting to do it, that keeps your blood pumping and it keeps you excited? Well, aside from the unpredictability of what might happen on site, it's like you have all these little tricks in your hat and you don't know which ones you're going to pull out when you get on site. There's a reason why emergency room medicine is the number one specialty that medical school graduates want to pursue. It's the variety of the experience of being a doctor and what might happen when you go to work that day. So it is that. Many will say it's control, but really I think it's more of a cause and effect situation. You say go and something happens, but it's actually much more than that. It's the result of a collaboration. And that includes everybody from the client to the crew. So yeah, that's probably a huge turn on right there. Cool. Very interesting. Daniel, would you share with us what is it about the live events business that keeps you going, wanting to do more and in this segment of the world that you've chosen? What is it that keeps you excited about it? Well, I will say the first that Tony said is a line I use almost daily. It is true. No two days are the same. So I've never been bored in this industry ever. Honestly, the end result, though, bringing together thousands of people into a cohesive experience and seeing that passion of community when you're doing, say, a big corporate event or something, it just never gets old. It never gets old. If you're to be hanging around when you see registration starting to fill up and then just see the trajectory of emotions across a two, three or week long event, it's yeah, it just never gets old. You know, we're all in what we would refer to as the shared live experience. We are where people gather to have some kind of experience. It could be entertainment. It could be messaging. And we all kind of stumbled into this business in a certain way. I started as a high school kid who stumbled into it. Tony, can you share how you ended up in this business and what circumstances or how did stars align that they put you in this business? I got my first taste of it as an assistant lighting designer when the gentleman who I worked for at the time got a call to do an Avon show in 1979. And we did a tour of three musical productions touting Avon products around the country. And that was my first exposure. I didn't really know what the business was, but it looked and felt like a show. And so we got called. A few years later, a fellow by the name of John Romeo, who I'd gone to school with, called and said, Anheuser-Busch needs a set for a meeting. And I thought, what is a what for a meeting? And we spent more money than I spent collectively off Broadway or off off Broadway an entire year on that set. And I got a check for more money than I made an entire year on that set. I said, there's something to this. I think I'm going to I think I'm going to have another look at this business. And one day I came home. I was living on 76th Street, Manhattan, and there was a show across the street that I had a load in was loaded into what was then called the Promenade Theater. And the producer had gone bust and the show had been torn out and was in a dumpster. So I walked past my set in the dumpster. I went to my mailbox and opened it. And there was that check from Anheuser-Busch for more money than I'd ever made in a year. And that was the beginning of a 45 year career designing probably five to six hundred shows. That is awesome. I write out of the dumpster that set, but it was followed up with the check. You know, you got to love the check, right? They just didn't appreciate those that audience in New York. You need to get to those beer drinkers, those Anheuser-Busch people, because they know how to party. I am still in touch with that client. He's awesome. Forty five years. Miles Kapper, share with us what things happened to put you in the live event space as a show caller, stage manager. How did this how did that work out? Well, I graduated from college like so many people, an English teacher. And the day after I graduated, I was offered actually two jobs, one to return to the school I did my student teaching at come September as a full fledged English teacher. And the other one was to basically start that evening as a floor manager at the PBS affiliate in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where I went to school and graduated. And everybody should be very thankful. I did not go the English teacher route. And as a result of that, I basically was hired at the PBS affiliate right away, spent two years there, and I Peter principled my way up. Peter principle is a very short theory that basically says you rise to your level of incompetence in any organization. And that it took me two years to get there. And then I moved to Los Angeles. I hooked up with a producer and I was basically his production assistant for three years. And he did huge events for IBM. That was his only client. And in Hawaii, on a forty five projector slide show and dancers and all kinds of things, I picked up headsets on the last show for the last wave of people. And I heard this guy call the show and I thought, oh, my God, this is amazing. And I went up to him after the show. His name was Lear Parent. He's still around, retired. And I said, I want to do what you do. And instead of blowing me off, he said, well, when we get back to L. A., let's have lunch. And that's where it all began for me. I was his assistant for two or three years. And then finally he said, you're ready, you're ready. You know, you've heard me enough on headsets. You know what you're doing. Just go for it. And he actually turned me on to a couple of rather large shows to get my feet wet. And that's kind of how it all began. And I never looked back. I got it. Well, that sounds like a cool pathway. Daniel, would you share with us how you got in this industry and how is it that, you know, you're obviously the head of creative services at a prestigious production team, MediaLoft. Maybe you could share with us how you got there. Yeah, sure. Well, I was recruited out of advertising, actually. I had a friend who was a recruiter. And I think along the way, just getting to know each other, I had mentioned a few times that I, whenever I had done live events or anything experiential in the marketing and advertising or branding world, I loved it. Like those were the highlights of my year. I think another thing that I spilled the beans on was whenever I was on, say, a big shoot, a big video shoot or a photo shoot, the people who I love to hang out with the most was the crew. They were just, there was something about the people in black back having lunch in the trailer, the passion and commitment and excellence. They were the most dependable people I ever worked with. So when this opportunity came to me, I mean, at the age I was when it came to me, I thought I'm probably not the right fit. I mean, I kind of, I know the advertising world. Do I know the events world? And I was wrong. And I'm glad I was wrong. And I'm glad I took that leap of faith. Honestly, one of my biggest apprehensions as a creative was, do I really want to see that much behind the curtain? Because is it going to really put a hamper on my creativity if I really learned how the sausage is made? And it's been the complete opposite. Less as you know, I mean, just from a technology perspective, it's actually opened up so many doors creatively where I would stop myself short of a really great idea. And now I'm like, yep, it's actually possible. So it's been, yeah, it's done actually the reverse, getting into live events and production. You know, what's interesting is I say this a lot about music people. Once it's in your blood, you can't, it's there forever. And it feels like listening to all three of you that this whole live shared experience, the audience, what you do with Broadway, all of those experiences keep us wanting more. The applause ultimately keeps us with that, you know, that tingling feeling that we want to continue to do this because there are rewards from experiencing what happens with the audience and however we get there. So my next question is back to Tony. Tony, what are the greatest rewards for what you do? And whether it's designing or any version of what you do, how do you get the greatest rewards for your work efforts? And is it from the clients that say, oh, you killed it. The set was amazing. Or is it from the post con, the feedback? What is your thoughts on that? Everything you said contributes to why it's exciting. There are some shows that are massive and they're clearly huge technical undertakings. And when somebody like Miles presses the go button, so to speak, and all this magic happens, it is thrilling. It's truly exciting. But we also do projects that basically are a lectern in a backdrop. And when a client, usually somebody very close to the CEO or other high level member of their organization comes and says, you made me look good. Then you know, you've done your job. And it's remarkably satisfying. You made somebody's job easier and you made them look good to their boss. So it's the big splash. Everybody loves it. They applaud, jump up and down. Best show ever. But there's nothing like somebody coming back to you years later and say, I'll never forget what you did for me. Oh, that's such it sounds like a hashtag. I'll never forget what you did to me for me. You know, for me, those days are over. I understand. You know, what's interesting is you refer to whether it's the big show with a big splash or it could even be a simple thing. It's the impression you leave on the person who's sending out that message. And it may not be a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to that person. And everybody wants to feel appreciated, valued. They want to feel they were part of something that was successful. I think that was super, super awesome. Miles, what are your thoughts on this? What are the greatest rewards of what you do? I know it sounds like a cliche, but really being a part of that process and contributing to what hopefully is a common goal for everybody involved is really, really amazing, given the timeline that all three of us are on. Once once we get off that plane. Now, having said that, there's a really fine line between when to take control and when to let the collaboration take place and be organic. And yeah, sometimes you just have to say, no, we're not doing it this way. And here's why. Just, you know, hopefully you have a producer backing you. But yeah, that that that's really that that's really the deal. It's really it's like, you know, the the cliche football analogy. Everybody on the team brings their own individual talent to the party. And that's what makes ultimately the whole thing work. I got it. Daniel, your thoughts on this, the greatest rewards in what you do or create, et cetera. Yeah, well, it's actually right in line with what Miles was saying, honestly. I mean, the the the word I jotted down was collaboration. And again, not to sound cliche either, but really a younger version of myself wanted to be the hero. You know, that's that's the egotism of a creative back in your 20s, I guess, or whatever. But the older I've gotten, I mean, we all know that it's it's there is no such thing as it just being one person's idea. And if it is, it's not the best idea. I mean, a well-informed idea has as multiple perspectives. And there's just nothing more rewarding than working with internally and externally, honestly, with clients and truly coming to the table as a collaborative form. It makes the clients happiest, too, because it's very, very few clients don't like to see a little bit of themselves in the work as well. Sure. So this question is back to Tony. Tony, I want to talk about the people you work with. Do you feel like it's a family or community? You know, I mean, personally, I've been on site with you many, many times over many, many years because I go back 41 years. So how do you feel about that? That group of people you work with and you do shows over and over with them? Is that is that is that closer than a family or is it your work family? Well, is that community work? It's definitely a work family. I mean, when I met my second wife. She asked, you know, like, when do I get to meet your friends? And I said, well, come on a plane with me. We're going to Bali and you'll get to meet most of my friends in a ballroom at the convention center. And after that, come with me to Germany and we're going to go to Munich and you can meet another set of my friends. Then we're going to London. You can meet another set of friends. I said, because none of them live in New York. And I mean, Les, in Orlando, there was one year that the one restaurant I spent the most money in and visited the most times was that that Swan Hotel, the sushi bar at the Swan. Yes, I'm familiar. And and that's where I see my friends. I mean, I you know, I see people backstage. We had dinner. We spent 10 days together just sharing family, sharing personal stories, war stories. You get on a plane, you don't see him for six months or you see them that same spot every year. So those relations and they go on for 40 years. Those relationships. I concur with you. I completely concur with you. Miles and I have done a show. We did a show that we don't do any longer, but we did it for like 25 years. And every year we did this same show. And it's exactly what you said. So, Miles, what are your thoughts about your road family versus your you know, your blood family? Well, they're a lot easier to shop for. For sure. You know, it's like, wow, you know, you can you can bring a dozen cupcakes to show site and you're like a hero, you know, and when I when I when our daughter was young, like really young, like five, six, seven years old. You know, whenever I was on show state, I would, you know, if there was an extra, you know, what what do they call those things in the middle of the tables of 10 that support the flowers and all that table settings table centerpieces, centerpiece? I would I would bring home a centerpiece if it had a battery attached to it because it did something. And at around seven or eight years old, she finally said, Dad, don't you know, don't bring me anything else from show site, because quite frankly, nothing is that exciting. But I thought I was being a hero. But to Tony's point, yeah, it's inevitably the more you work, the more you're going to work, you're going to meet the same people. And there's just enough new people being mixed in on a per gig basis to make the pot more exciting. And quite frankly, it's not just people on headsets. I mean, I know riggers that are never on headsets because they're waiting for the show to end so they can take it down. But in those moments where you're loading in and you meet them, it's like after you see them for a while, they become familiar. And we've all been there. You know, you walk into the ballroom, you see somebody go, wow, you look familiar. When did we work together last? And then you both start laughing because 100 gigs ago and you don't remember the city, the ballroom, the club. You don't remember anything. You just remember them. So so, Daniel, your thoughts on your work, family, your road family or your real family? Well, the by my work family here at MediaLoft, really, I do refer to it more as a family for sure. You know, we've been an employee owned company for the past 26 years of our 50 years of existence. We're actually celebrating our 50th anniversary this year, in fact. You know, so we all have skin in the game, honestly, because it does it directly affects our bottom line even, you know, as individuals. So we do work together very much as kind of a familial unit. You know, the greater community of our contractor friends around the globe, you know, people that we work with, vendors and so on and so forth. You know, they're a little bit more of a community, but we all share that same passion and professionalism and that commitment to excellence. So it is, to be honest with you, a little bit of both. Interesting. OK, so this next question back to Tony. Tony, where do you find the challengers or the stressors in this business we're in, you know, the people gathering? And I'm going to add one other thing to this question. When you're on show site and something unplanned happens. So you've got these stressors and the challenges are happening. How do you deal with them? And what goes through your mind when maybe something unplanned happens? Sometimes the things that happen that are unplanned are really remarkable and you and they're they're happy mistakes, something you discover different way to do your show or different way to look at what you created. I want to borrow something, you know, you're always asking me first, I get it, I get to borrow something. Miles and Daniel both said it's like when you come across something new and unexpected. It's the exciting part, it's like, OK, how do I solve this? Our job when I was 20, I might have thrown a tantrum if something went wrong, I'll be perfectly candid. I might have just thrown a fit. How can you get this so wrong? How can you get this? You know, how can this be so so off base? Well, you know, 30 years later, there's about a thousand reasons that could have gone wrong. And usually it's not really anybody's fault. It's accumulation of things. You've got to sit back and figure out what the solution looks like. Because. It I mean, I've been in situations where literally somebody went out of the room and pulled a fire alarm so that we could buy more time to finish the load. That is a technique for delay. That is a technique. That was a fire alarm. We got instead of doing the show that morning, we did it that afternoon because something went that wrong. But. For the most part. The teamwork and Miles will know this more than anybody because he's usually in the hot seat when stuff like this happens. The team that you're working with has to be relied on to solve the problem. It is not one is no one person's idea, as Daniel said. It's no one person's fault. It usually and no one person will solve. You know, it's interesting is that with a good crew, you can keep a show glued together, right? You can keep the machine running, OK? No matter what happens there, you know, a good team will overcome all obstacles, in my humble opinion. Miles, your thoughts on this? The challenges and stressors of the people gathering business when unplanned things happen. I've been in rooms with you when unplanned things happen. When a cobra snake kissed my cameraman's lens and the audience screamed. Yeah, that was a moment. That was quite a moment. And you and the headset chatter was like, did I see what I think I just saw? And the good news is that the camera person took it, took it very well. And but yeah, I mean, to Tony's point, you know, the the crew is everything. You know, the stage manager is the one guy, guys. This is what's going to happen in three minutes, because quite frankly, a crew doesn't want to know if they're not involved in something in the next three or four minutes. Quite frankly, they don't want to hear about it yet. So the the the the case in point is, oh, my God, there's a couple of examples I could think of. But the most obvious one is you're doing an award show. And this happens in Los Angeles, Hollywood a lot where they bring in guest presenters to give an award. And, you know, well, so and so is stuck on the 405 freeway. He's not going to get here for another half hour. And he's due on stage in 15 minutes. So it's like, you know, it's like, guys, during the next video, we're going to arrange the graphics for this presenter and we'll get him on stage and we'll delay the guy who's going to be late by 20 minutes. And we'll, you know, address it then. And a good crew will like automatically say, Miles, so and so's graphics are ready to go. Miles, we're going to videotape seven or eight and not three or four. And so they kind of line things up. Now, sometimes you do have to be a little bit more forceful, and that is when a production company, typically they don't have the experience of a seasoned producer or director, and they'll schedule a 15 minute break for 3000 people. And I tell them you can't do a 15 minute break for 3000 people because it's they won't be back in their seats and ready to go for 45 minutes. Well, we can't do that because the next one up is a guest presenter and he's got to be out of the ballroom by a certain time to make his flight. So what do we do? We don't do a break. That's what we do. Or this guy is going to leave 20 minutes early to make his flight, you know. And so as a stage manager, you try to head those things off before it becomes an issue. I think rolling with the punches, Daniel, your thoughts on the challenges of the people gathering business and when things don't happen, they happen that were unplanned. To be honest, and I don't say this as a negative statement at all, but I find them or I seek them out on it, honestly, around every corner. You know, that's that's you know, we seek them out by design to mitigate the surprises on site. There will always be there's no such thing in the world of live events without something at some degree going sideways, sideways. I mean, and so, you know, whenever I hear somebody commiserating about that, I question whether they're in the right industry. Our job is to go in and mitigate that as much as humanly possible. You can't foresee everything, right? I mean, there are just some things someone's going to miss a flight. Weather will turn on you. But to go into it, honestly, and be surprised that something goes sideways. To me, that's that's that's just not how you conduct a live event. Got it. So so, Tony, what would you give your younger self advice about working in this business now that you're older and have more experience? What would you tell your younger self about if they wanted to get in this business or or any any advice you would share? I'm going to Shane said something you said something earlier, if you use an acronym, please explain it. My acronym is wait. It's also a word. Yes. Why am I talking? If I'm not contributing, shut up. OK, that's just listen. You'll learn a whole lot more than listening to the sound of your own voice. Now, this is wise knowledge that he has just shared. Tony just shared some knowledge. Everybody that wait, we can't see me, but I am writing that down right now. Daniel, it is I want to tell you, you got a little media loft story because I did a show for you 20 years ago, 30 years ago. And I made a mistake on it and I opened my mouth and the mistake got fixed. Right. But in the end, I realized my comment. Didn't land well, and I never worked there again. And. No, I feel that just shut up. Well, you learned a lot, Tony, you've really learned a lot. Now you're sharing it. OK, same question to Miles. Miles, what would you what advice would you give to your younger version of Miles? The visual version of Tony, if you're on a Zoom call and you're looking at a show flow for the first time and something just doesn't look right. Trust me, you're not the only one on that Zoom call who's looking at that, thinking the same thing and wondering, am I going to look like a total idiot if I say on item 17? Why is this happening now here and not an item 19? And at that point, someone's going to say, oh, God, yeah, you're right. That shouldn't be there. What happened? And it's just don't freak if something doesn't look right. Say something, because there's no such thing as a stupid question. And this is one industry. Where that applies more than anything, by virtue of the fact that we all got into this industry of different ways. I mean, you know, nobody went to college and thinking, I'm going to major in corporate events. Well, they do have those majors now, kind of, sort of, but nothing like in the day when we were all going to college. Hey, I don't have a question that says, will AI replace all of us? I don't think so. I don't think so. Daniel, what advice would you give to your younger self? Mine would be take a deep breath. You can never find clarity in the face of any obstacle or challenge when you're running. You know, I think coming into live events, I did learn that the pace of things, as opposed to in advertising and marketing, it's just, it is faster. And you don't move deadlines and timelines. That's where the whole, you know, saying the show must go on. I mean, that's, you are working, this will happen. With or without you, this will happen. And so, it took a beat for me to understand that, you know, when you get caught up in the pace that it's going, you think that you need to be running and you realize you're just really running in place. I mean, I always like to use, you know, the example, if you happen to be someone who drives the speed limit, and someone flies by you at 90 miles an hour, and you pull up to a stoplight about five minutes later, how many times do you actually notice that you pull up at about the same time as that person who's probably going to get arrested in the next hour? And I apply that to the work as well. I'm not saying move slow, but pace yourself. And that's the biggest thing that I've learned. Okay, okay. This is my last question, and I'm going to start with you, Tony, first. What moment or event would you say, after your many years of your career, has been the pinnacle, and that moment is ingrained inside of you, and it left a lasting impression, something you're so proud of? Wow. There's a lot of them that are really something to be proud of. So, I'm just going to go to the most expansive project. I did a project for Xerox, a name that's fallen from grace, in many ways. In 2020, that was a 60,000 square foot exhibit experience with three theaters, two restaurants, a bar, and it, we spent, I don't know, $22 million doing it. This is now in 2020. Wow. Sounds like a big show. It was a, I was in Germany for 10 weeks. It was phenomenal. But the thing that was most impressive about it was all the components that had to get pulled together to make it happen, and the satisfaction that came from doing that. There's been many other projects since that have been interesting and exciting, but that one, I guess, was, you know, it was certainly the biggest and most expansive. Got it. Miles, your moment, event, pinnacle of your career that has been ingrained in you as, you know, whatever you would say is something that is the most amazing thing. Can you share? More emotional than anything technical, for sure. I did an event in Vegas for 2,500 people in the audience, and every one of these people had the ability to take their wallet out and write a check to somebody presenting on stage. And the one of the people presenting, they each had their own keynote. One of the people presenting was a guy named Scott Harrison, and he was presenting for the very first time. He has since then become quite a familiar keynote person in a ballroom. But it was his first time, nervous as hell, and when he was done with rehearsal, I approached him, I said, look, I said, the crew call tomorrow morning is 8 a.m. If you want to meet me at 7 o'clock on stage, I'll give you a couple of pointers. And I did. He was so receptive, and it became hugely successful. And I imagine a couple of folks pulled out their checkbook to support his nonprofit called Clarity Water, which has become a fairly big deal. And eventually, I heard back from him with a huge thank you. And that meant more to me than pretty much anything I've been involved with, which have been quite impressive. But this one touched me. You know, Miles, anytime you can help other people and make a difference, and someone appreciates that, oh, that touches your heart. So Daniel, what would you say has been the pinnacle, most exciting, interesting moment that's been ingrained in you in all the events you've ever worked on? Well, hopefully it hasn't happened yet. But honestly, I think the best way to answer this one, Les, is I'm just going to kind of come full circle, and this kind of puts a little bow on it. And back to where we started this conversation, and both Tony and Miles touched on this, even you did, Les. And honestly, it's all, honestly, whether it's, I think Tony mentioned this, massive stadiums down to a lectern, and a handful of folks in a private small ballroom. That's not the criteria. It's about how you connect with a person. And for me, that pinnacle, I do feel it on every single event, just in a different way. That's that reaction from not only the audience, but also, of course, the people we're serving, which is our client. And without it sounding chest-thumping, there is nothing better than when you get that call-out, say, from the stage. And we've had that so many times. We're very unsolicited. Someone from that stage is thanking MediaLock for the work that they know we poured into, as they often say, making us look good. I think Miles had mentioned that earlier today. Just thank you for making us look better than we thought we could. It's why I do the gig. Well, on that note, that's why I do the gig, which is another future hashtag. I started this podcast, Why Am I in the Live Events Industry? And for any listener who can't feel the emotion and the years of doing it and how exciting it can be and how nerve-wracking it can be and everything in between is what all three of you guys have really expressed. I'm very happy that all the audience can hear this great experience level of really why we all stay motivated to do live events and continue the shared experience. And that, in my opinion, will never go away. So I want to thank Miles, Tony, and Daniel. You guys are amazing. I look forward to seeing you in ballrooms, convention centers, event spaces, any place where we can have people gather. They can have curtains. People can scream and have fun. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody, great job. Thank you. Thanks a lot.