WHAT'S THE FUTURE OF LIVE EVENTS?

Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to the Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is courtesy of LMG with your host Les Goldberg. Hello, this is Les Goldberg and welcome to my podcast, The Road Ahead. Today I have three amazing guests the founder of Extraordinary Events, Andrea Michaels. I have the chairman and founder of BizBash, David Adler, and I have the founder of the production network, John Vadino. And welcome to the show. And today we're going to talk about the future of live events. I will throw it first right to John, and John, I want to know what your thoughts are about. When do you think we're going to see live events return? First, thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here and in these important times. And we kind of look at it two ways. Our clients are both US based clients, with US audiences and then international clients. And I think the winter is going to have small audiences here in the States. I think 30% of past audiences are going to attend initially, 40% are going to be on the fence, and then I think 30% of audience is going to kind of stay away for a longer term until there's what each person considers a cure. We're more concerned with our global clients about, you know, doing a conference for 200 people with customers from 30 countries and having them come to the states and and how we do what we've all come to know as hybrid events so that we can have our local audience that can come enjoy in one manner, but then also create an event virtually that works for that audience that might have two weeks notice that they can attend. So I think it's a little bit different for our local audiences and our global ones. Andrea, what do you think about the live event business returning? When will we see a standing in ballrooms and convention centers? I think that is a long time ahead, but I think it's also dependent on what what kind of event you're talking about, because I'm actually seeing from friends of mine that do social events that the fundraisers, of course, which are so dependent upon the live interactions, they're starting to be inquiries about fall that are not pushing back. And weddings, honestly, bar mitzvahs, ceremonial key events like that are going to come back, I think, a little bit quicker but smaller. And I do think that the global events, it's going to take a very, very long time because of the travel involved with it. I think we're going to go more for regional events, which will come back with local events first. So but I don't think till 2021, we're going to really see anything in what we can call a rebirth of them. I keep hearing about postponements to fall and then fall now getting postponed first quarter 2021. So I think it much depends on the audience. I don't think you'll see big international events where people are together in a ballroom for a long time. Well, that is not encouraging, Andrea. That is eight months of of a painful road for this calendar year. I want to know, David, where are you on this subject and what are your opinions about live events? I yeah, I've been listening to a lot of people. I've, I believe that it's going to be longer than people think. I think we're still, you know, 18 months away from I don't think we're going to be back full. But I think it depends on the health situation. I think a lot is going to depend on. Will this fall have a resurgence? I think that that is such a big unknown right now that we're being terrified into thinking that that we've got to keep this, keep the keep it, keep everything under cover a little bit. So I think everybody's going to be a little flexible. People going walking out without their masks. People that are taking this too cavalierly are going to be in trouble. I think the fear is planning an event and somebody gets sick. You don't you don't want to be in. That headline is probably the worst and something for just because I don't think it's necessarily that there won't be meetings. So when I talked about local or regional, there may be many more that replace the one large one. So I don't think it's that they're only I think they're just going to be different. Yep yep yep I believe I just wrote a story. I just wrote a story a couple of weeks ago, about three weeks ago now for weeks, called the Hub and Spoke Method for events where you're going to have venue networks that are going to be able to create one place, you'll have the staging and the main stage, and you'll have maybe 50 smaller events around the country, or around a city or around a neighborhood for smaller groups getting together. And I think you're going to see a lot more of that hybrid hub and spoke. And then also the people that don't even want to get into that world will stay home and watch it on digital, digitally. But I think that the whole idea with events is to create intimacy in larger events. And I think if we're going to be able to do that with this hub and spoke method, because people are going to get to know each other better. And so I think it's going to be actually positive in some ways. And we see a lot of we see a lot of corporate clients going in that direction for their conferences is not doing it in one city, but doing it in multiple cities. And I think, yeah, the LMG staff enough in US have been talking about how you do that mainstage virtually so that you can have a compelling event that works in those hub and spoke sites, but then also be able to have localized content that happens in those spaces so that it's not all just pushed from a studio or from a central site. And that's kind of exciting if you think about it. But I think we also need to consider and I look at kind of economically to the scale. I was talking to a friend of mine in Las Vegas and asking him how things were going in Vegas, and he said, well, we're talking to clients. But instead of the multitudes of people, we're looking at reopening up for 250 people. And my question was, I understand that. But if you take a look at, like a Google or a Microsoft or any Amazon that have these grand meetings and they spend 2 or $3 million on the set in the AV, they're not going to do that for 250 people. So I think that's also something when we talk about what is the future, what's the road ahead is how does it compare with the road back? You know, I think the idea of of people actually gathering, we have to get over the hump of people feeling comfortable with air travel and hotels have to reopen. But but I think ultimately what you're saying, Andrea, is that the scale of the meeting goes from, you know, 25,000 people to 250 people. There will go with the production budget, at least for the live segment and the virtual component, or the stream will be an add on. But we're not probably talking about the same kind of dollars and spend to put out for that meeting. Yeah, well, let me let me shoot back a little bit on this hub and spoke method. You can actually have thousands of people attending one event if and create intimacy by having, you know, a venue could be a hotel room for certain people. So there could be ways that you can get scale, but I think it's going to be the technology that people are going to pay for the bridges that connect these small venues with the larger venue. So you can have interaction both ways. Yeah. So the zoom becomes on steroids in a sense. So if we're going to plan an event, what are going to be the subjects and the discussions about what the event looks like in this new normal? We're getting ready to come back to can I, can I get a sense of the wrong word that I think we're going to have to get over? And I don't think that we're judging on what it looks like, but I think that because of what's going on, the value of the event has to be much more in line with the commitment that you don't want to go to an event and end up killing someone in your family, you know, because of bringing something back. So the value of the event has to be on steroids. Now, the reason for doing the event has to really be worth it. And then as from the planning perspective. So we're working on a graduation for mid-June in Washington state, and we're still in phase one. We might move to phase two. But you think about from your world, you know, we normally rent a video truck and park it. We're actually using 620 by 20 tens with clear vinyl wall in a T inside the tent, so that each of our technicians can be in their own space, clean their own space, have their own entrance to their space using the same gear that was in the truck, but moving it out into the parking lot. And that's going to be what we need to do until we get further down the phases, at least in Washington state. That is an interesting setup when you think about what backstage would normally look like or, you know, the the density inside a mobile truck and what we have to do. But what do you think the clients are going to be asking for? Well, you know, one of the things about even doing smaller events, we have to have engagement. And maybe there's an add on for some type of streaming event. So there's the live piece and maybe there's a streaming version. What do you think that conversation is like with the customer? Most of ours are asking what they can do, how they can do it. They all know they need it. And defining what it is for a customer going back to this graduation, because it's near term, we're having students create Zoom parties, and most of our video infrastructure is we're invited to all those Zoom parties. So we're going to be able to bring in three, six seconds of these Zoom parties throughout, because that's our audience. Otherwise there's, you know, the people on stage, period. And that's the only way we can make it consist of a fraternity can have a Zoom party and alumni association, some kids from the drama class, a family so that a graduation becomes interactive and we have an audience because we know the audience is out there. We know the graduates are watching the stream, but if we can bring them into that stream, that's where a lot of the video infrastructure we're bringing to this event is about. And I think we're going to see that more, because people do want to feel like there's an audience there and like the hub and spoke example before, to be able to know that there's 250 people in ten different cities who are part of that event and they can interact in some manner. That's what's going to help us get through this. You know, it's it's funny that you bring up the word audience, because when I think of the word audience, I kind of related to theater where you sit and you watch something versus what I would call a meeting at a live event, because a meeting to me means you get to interact with people, live you meet. And I think a lot of companies right now, as I see it, every time I look on LinkedIn, I see everybody, every decorator, every florist, every caterer is doing. Now, I'm an expert in virtual meetings, and I think there's going to be a whole lot of bad stuff that'll work against the companies that do great stuff. I think the word yeah, I think the word virtual is being thrown out. There has no real definition now. And I think we have to define it as an industry pretty soon, or I think what you're saying is going to occur as our clients are going to get a little bit angry about it, and you can get turned off very easily by something not done well. And I'm a great fan of these competition shows on TV, the good ones, but even they are still trying to get it right. And I figure, well, if NBCUniversal cannot get The Voice right where the microphones are going out and you lose someone either singing or talking, imagine how it's going to be for the bulk of the people trying to produce these meetings. If they don't have the expertise to do it, it's going to be like death by PowerPoint is now death by PowerPoint, death by virtual people doing here is and I look at this as being a great opportunity. For instance for entertainment companies is attention span of people at meetings versus sitting next to someone and being able to say, oh my God, what did you think of that great car reveal? You know, so now you see it on a screen. Attention spans are limited. I think it's screen time. Unless the content is fabulous. Absolutely. There are so many opportunities here for spoken word artists, for musicians to almost do intermission style entertainment every few minutes, which liven up this broadcast. I don't see that being addressed. Well, the question that you're bringing up is really interesting, though, is that is it broadcasts or is it participatory? And what I think it both at least I found difficult is if you're looking at a screen and you're seeing 50 tiny little faces, like on a big Zoom call, I don't know, I don't feel like I'm really interacting or connecting or feeling that sense of intimacy that comes from the live experience. So let me shift the conversation here, and let's kind of work forward to we are going to have live events, even if small live events as we move forward, but we're going to have some restrictions. David, what do you think about how our clients will adapt to these restrictions, whether it be seed placement, you know, audience size, locations or, or even what we've talked about doing a number of smaller events. What are your thoughts on on a client adapting to those restrictions? I think the client will I think the attendees will will, will be fine. I just don't see how the economics will work out. You can't put 250 people in 1000 person ballroom and not spend a lot of money, and I just don't see. And with all of the cleaning requirements and with all of the health care requirements, and you have to stage how people enter a room, now you've got to time it. So Four Seasons is doing staged entrances so you can only come to an event based on your time invitation they're hosting. They're only using every other room in their hotels, for example, so that there's more distancing between between even rooms. So I think that that the restrictions will be fine for an attendee. But will our clients be willing to quadruple the amount of money they spend on an event? Does that make sense? You know, the when you have a bigger room, you obviously need bigger screens, bigger sound. You need all the elements that have to scale with the size of the event. And I think adapting to this new reality. So sometimes these new reality is a live event, and then it has this virtual component and being able to put out two unique products. John, what do you think about that? You're going to do a live event and then you're going to have a separate stream or a production for the virtual component. And they're slightly different because obviously if I'm in the audience, I'm having a live experience, and when I'm watching it virtually, I'm having a virtual experience. And there's slightly different. What are your thoughts? Generally different. So you you need to have the virtual also have a live component. So the hub and spoke thing which I've read. Also if you have let's say ten venues around the globe that are have a keynote from location one. But then the presidents of those different countries are for at least half of that event in that room in those different countries, leading that interactive discussion needs to occur. That's going to make a complete event. If it's all just push. Yep. And and that's not going to be good. We're just finishing an event for a client where you would normally record somebody in a studio, and it would be a 15, 20 minute dialog in online that reduced to seven. It's almost a third to be able to hold and capture that audience. Like Andrea was talking. You can't push video out for 21 minutes speech. You got to find ways to edit it down and make it compelling in that virtual space. Well, can I bring up another aspect of this? An important part of life meetings, conventions, conferences has been the networking event. Well, if you've got social distancing, no ability to do buffets anymore. There are a lot more than screens and sizes. You don't want to sit at a 72 inch round with one other person on the other side. Networking is about well, let's just say handshakes are gone, but that can be replaced with it. Just a nice, respectful recognition. Not at the head. You don't have to shake hands, but you do need to talk. And networking is about establishing connections, contacts. If you look at sales meetings, it isn't just about talking heads, it's about interaction. So what do we do about that? How does that come back? And do you wear masks at these events? I mean, do you think our attendees would feel comfortable wearing masks? Well, take a look. Awards ceremony or a banquet and the hotel revenue if they don't serve a meal. So it affects so many things. John, do you think attendees will show up if we plan future events? Do you what do you think the triggers are for an attendee to feel comfortable showing up? It's the million dollar question, and I think it's going to be different for every country. And I think it's going to be different for every state. I think if you look at age. I think my mom's not going to go to the village theater for a while and see a live performance. You know, I'm in my 60s. I'm going to be careful about where I go. I am going to wear a mask. And I think over time. I'll relax on some of that, but not it's not going to be the same. I'm going to go to a lot less than I used to for a while, and it's just how long that while is, and I think it's going to be two years. Do you think it's two years? Oh my goodness. And you know me, I'm a I'm a half glass full guy. I understand. Andrea, what do you think about the whole mask thing? Do you think people will show up first and will they wear masks? What is your opinion on? The ones who do show up will wear masks, but the rest of them won't show up. Well, exactly. So I think that and a lot of this is going to be predicated by well, I don't want to get into the politics of it. Okay, but will there be a vaccine? What is the current health situation? So I agree with David there. I think there are so many unknowns that we have no control over. I think a certain amount of people right now would go to Coachella if there was a Coachella. Oh yeah, for sure. They're very risky. There's always going to be the people who just don't give a crap. They'll do it. But. The the planners of it, you know, if you take a look and you go, okay, so what if some of these great conferences consisted of they've had a concert component, maybe it's at the Las Vegas Speedway. Wow. Queen appears that isn't going to happen. That that scale of entertainment. Probably not in the near term. But if attendees show up that they each have to make a personal decision on whether as as David was saying, it's got to have some kind of great, enticing reason to get there. And then they got to feel safe, right, to make sure that they're not going to put their their livelihood or their risk, their families. So these are all the components of the future of events. Well, and if you take it down to a personal level, it's like I wouldn't get on a plane right now. Yeah. Me either. And I don't want to go into a hotel room right now because you can put you can tell me the process as you are putting in place for cleaning. I don't believe them. You know, Andrea, you are 100% right. I went to pick up my car from enterprise, for example, and they said, oh, we have this cleaning thing and I get there and no one's wearing masks. It was very relaxed. So all of the corporate BS you hear is one thing, but the practicality is that that it's sloppy. I think that we're all expressing the same fear. So as a meeting planner, event planner, a corporate planner, you can give a very compelling reason for someone to be there. You can meet the president as a company in person, masked or not. You can have great speakers that will engage. It is the opportunity to meet people you need to know and in order to advance your career. Maybe it's, you know, these multi-tier product launches, whatever they are for these products. But many, many, many people, they won't trust it. I don't trust it. Trade show, because obviously we're thinking in the form of general session, big or small. And how about that trade show environment? You know, John, what do you think about the trade show? Is that coming back? What's the temperature on trade shows in your opinion, taking it virtual is a must. And again, assuming that for large trade show exhibits that bring people from around the globe that half, I'm going to guess half can't come at any one time. So having a virtual and a 3D component in the convention center is going to be necessary. Not for the near term, but for the long term. And I think for a good while after that, having both the virtual and the live is going to be important. And that provides opportunity in talking to some of our clients, you know, a trade show set up lasts for a week. If there's a virtual component that can be brought back and shared with the rest of their staff, because they bought for tickets and went to the live, that starts to become interesting for brands to be able to get their message out to a broader audience that was in there. But it's it's going to be a while again before that starts. But I'm actually excited about the virtual and some of the technology that's coming out. And we're working with gaming companies for a couple of our clients because they have a virtual world that has good graphics and has high end modeling, that we can take an existing 3D model of a client's hard built trade show booth and put it into this world and do a lot of the same interactives, a lot of the same video, different experience. But you can use that to broaden your audience in the long run. I think that the technology thing that we're talking about is really important. I think what what Magic Leap is doing and using the term spatial computing, where the room becomes the canvas as opposed to a screen, is going to revolutionize what a trade show will be. So you'll walk down the hall in a hotel, and you can have the booth on the wall that you walk into and experience it entirely without people and, and sort of have the same thing. It's shared reality as opposed to virtual or or augmented, and they're developing inexpensive ways of doing that, which I think will lower the cost of it dramatically, like the way video mapping is doing. I do think trade shows are not going away because they're a huge engine of commerce, and so they're going to have to be reinvented a bit. We have the infrastructure of the hotel, of the, of the convention center, which is huge. I think there's going to be a huge partnership between telemedicine and trade shows and events, because you're going to need to get certified before you go into it. You're not no one's going to take your temperature and know that that works. But there may be sort of telemedicine approach that will give you some sort of certificate that you're okay within 12 hours of going to an event, let's say. So I think I don't the trade show business is on fire in terms of trying to advocate their interests. I'm on the board of the Society of Independent Show, the biggest trade shows from weed and things like that. And they're they're kind of betting on the fact that this vaccine is going to happen because it's going to be really tough about it. And in the short term, like, yes, for instance, do you think something like that is like what CES. I think that the CES, I think CES of all of the trade shows will benefit from virtual, because you get to see a lot of stuff. I think it's going to be the more, you know, the gift shows and things like that, but you need to touch and buy stuff. It's going to be a little harder, I guess. And I just I wonder about the component of it because there is the magic of discovery when you go through a trade show, and I wonder how you do that virtually versus live, where you don't specifically look for going to a booth, but you wander and you explore. Well, I'm going to get I think that it's going to be art projects. You're going to be able to walk into a maze, and the maze will have one item that will be really well designed, and so that will give you that'll teach you about what their highlights are. And I think you're going to have it's going to be very interesting to see how these things transform. I'm going next week. There's a, there's a, there's a hotel a restaurant right next to where I am in Virginia called the in at Little Washington, which is a three Michelin star, a restaurant. And they're only going to allow half their people to come in. It's they're small to begin with. And they put mannequins all around in the other table and they're getting a lot of press on that. That's what is happening. That is awesome. Yeah. So so you're going to see that people are people. It's capturing people's attention. The captives is the whole name of the game here. And you're going to have to find new ways of capturing people's attention, either as art projects or as it's just a different approach. Yeah. And when you're interested in that piece of art in that world and you touch it virtually, then you pour it into that exhibit. So you're being enticed by and Andrea, back to what you talked about before, I think I think performers, live performers in virtual who are entertaining and who can bring an emotion out in a person to be able to touch that portal, to go into that exhibit or go into that tasting room, virtual tasting room. I think that's going to be really vital to success. Do you know, I think about when I go to CES and there's a section on health and welfare and there's all these new gadgets that come out that everything from taking your temperature to how you sleep to all of that stuff and a lot of that stuff you kind of want to, you know, you're meandering around and you're just looking for things you have no clue. And it'll be really interesting how to do that virtually. You know that that is a massive art project. And the competition with the number of exhibitors on that show, you know, and I'm sure in sponsorships and how they come up with some virtual approach, it's going to be very, very interesting. There's a company Sansar that came out of Linden Labs that did Second Life, and they separated, you know, just before all of this started. And they're doing virtual concerts and they're they take a percentage of the gate just like you would. You go in, you can talk to your friends, you have an avatar, you can buy merch that either you wear in your avatar or merch that gets sent to your house. So there's a generational part to the gaming world that does not mind doing things virtually. And that's, you know, for for our age group, I have to spend a lot of time just talking to folks in our staff about what those millennials and extenders are looking for, for interaction. And it's different than us. And I think our clients are starting to see that. And I check out Sansar. It's kind of interesting as our generation gets older, since we're all probably part of the same generation, we need to engage our brains in different ways in order to prevent things like Alzheimer's and things like that. So we're going to be to do these gaming things. Yeah. As as part of our health. Yeah. That's the game changer. It's not just doing them. It's doing them exceptionally well and figuring out what the interactive component is. And I like what you're saying here because I see a lot of, oh, we have great entertainers that will perform live, okay. But without the other component of it of feeling you're involved. You could just be watching a YouTube video. Yeah, absolutely. So let me take this conversation in one last direction here. So today, if someone were to call you and say, I want to plan an event, it would seem that it would be a somewhat irresponsible and in my opinion, the world, the sentiment of the world is that this is not the right time to talk about planning a live event. It's almost irresponsible to some degree. But what I see is as as things reopen and depending upon if we don't have a second wave of this, of this illness coming on us, then the sediment over time will change. And after Disney World opens and airline airline flights increase and people open, hotels and things go back to a little bit closer to normal. I think the sediment of people and the corporate CEOs, they're always planning 3 to 6 months out of whether or not they'll do something even a year out. And I think we and under today's world, we can't really effectively mention or even say the word live event with a live audience or we've broken some rules, but I'd say in the next 3 to 6 months as things change and go back to some new sense of normal, and if the health issue is either resolved by not as many cases of a vaccine, I think ultimately that will be the genesis for us to start planning live events again. What are your thoughts? And I'll start with Andrea. As far as what has to happen for it to be a responsible decision, to plan a live event with a live audience? Well, I think for one thing, you need, gosh, that's so hard because I keep looking at the situations of force majeure and insurance, which many companies didn't have. I do think it's a matter of health. I think it's a matter of security. I think it's a matter of safety, and I think it's for a live event to happen. I really feel you have to be 100% secure. You can't be 80% secure because I don't think if the cases are dropping, that gives anybody a sense of security, because the one case that could be there at the meeting could be the end doing of everybody. So I think that people just have to be given a great sense of safety. And I don't think the idea that you can put 250 people in a 20,000 square foot ballroom solves it. So, hey, David, do you agree? And do you have any thoughts on what is the what has to happen for us to responsibly plan and execute live events? I think that you can also, from thinking about doing this, creating live events in physical spaces without people, but have guides that go and interpret what's in those spaces for you on the virtual side, and then have people able to walk, walk through it like they're going through a museum with the physical spacing and all that, with no food and things like that. Right now, I think that's going to happen. I do believe that the premium side of our business is going to be more important than ever, because you're not. When you're planning an event now, you do not want to go to the person that just got out of college and their own wedding, that the pro is going to be more valuable than ever, because we're now not talking about logistics, we're talking about safety. And you're going to need to be a master of science, technology, logistics, performance, art, everything, because it's much more serious than it ever was. Can I bring up one other thing? And I'm sorry, because I know I'm interrupting someone else, but there are some things that are old school and they're relevant to live events, graduation ceremonies that are done as drive in theaters, summer concert series, which are being done as drive in concerts. So you get it in your car, but you also see it on a stage. You also see it on a screen. You can do this for hundreds. So there are ways of creating live experiences with a twist. Let me let John opine on, you know, what do we have to do, you know, to responsibly get back to work. You know, what has to happen, in your opinion, for you to be planning your next 500 person meeting in a ballroom. So from a client perspective, you have to plan both. You have to plan because we don't know. They don't know. No one knows when. So right now we're planning both clients. Some are canceling their fall events but keeping their winter events. And so you're planning to not just add virtual, but what do you do if it's only virtual? Or what do you do if you can go back to live attendance? And I don't think anybody who says, you know, we're going to have 2000 people in a room and all the audience is going to be able to come for next two years. I don't think it's thinking, well, the safety aspect. So we, you know, us less. We have a safety briefing. When the crew hits the auditorium or the convention center, it's usually a 15 minutes. We talk about hard hats and all the normal things. Well, we're putting hours on video because we want to get it. With our Covid portion added to it. We want to get it to those staffs before they even come to the venue, before they even get in their truck. And then we're going to leverage that and give it to our clients so they can start to be able to communicate to their audience prior about how this really is going to work. It's just a whole new way of registering someone for an event. It's going to be different. So it sounds like for all of you agree that live events are connected to physical and health, safety and all of the elements that we do as far as planning. While the virtual offerings are a temporary solution, which will probably be around a while as an add on to main events that once they come back, because people may not feel comfortable. And if we get a vaccine or some medical solution that would would turn the tides and we get back to doing what we love to do and create these amazing shows every day and experiences. Do you have any closing thoughts? Andrea, for all of the stuff we've discussed today for The Future of Violence, I do. I think that it's not just the event, but I think it's all the components that lead to the live event. So if you're going going to be doing a conference, what is the safety standards in the hotel? Can you check in and get into your room just using your phone? You know, because let's face it, the training of hotel staff are necessarily the kitchen help. This needs to be intense training of everybody, not just the attendees. So there are a lot of new standards that have to be put into place before these things can happen. It's not just about the compelling reason to be there. It's about feeling secure that once their compelling reason comes to life, that you're safe. And David, what would you give us your closing thoughts on the future of live events and all we've discussed? Well, I believe that event organizers at the core, the heart of what they do, have to be what I call a collaboration artist. They have to the objective, whatever the objective of the event, they have to accomplish that objective. And it's usually not. Could it be a feeling? It could be a commerce, it could be an idea spread, it could be something. But the idea is how do you make interaction between people effective? And if you can do it, you do it virtually. If you have to do it online, you do it in person. You do it in person. If you have to do it one on one, you do it one on one. But ultimately, even at a wedding, the idea of having people sit at sit at the table with people that they don't know and get to know each other. They're creating all these conversations of things that can happen when people interact. So I don't think that's going away. I think that we're doing more of it actually, with the zooms and the conversation like we're having today. I think that the form is new and we're going to have to adjust to it because of the safety issues. I am the first one that thinks that getting back to face to face interaction is probably one of the most effective ways, because of the serendipity effect of it. But until then, we're going to have to be, as I think David starkly says, that the the key thing with an event or any kind of thing is ingenuity. And no matter what budget you have, and I think that we're in an age of ingenuity right now where people are innovating and thinking about new things. And it's kind of exciting, actually. So until we get back to the cure, we're going to have to do rerouting and detours to get to the point of overcoming the objective of whatever the gathering is or whatever the objective a company is or or an idea that needs to be spread to the world. So. So, John, would you give us your closing thoughts? Sure. I'm going to go back to what David said earlier about the hub and spoke. And I think the technology that makes the hub and spoke work is the smart people in this industry who are helping clients be creative and how they tell their story. And I think more time has to be spent on that change of the creative to get across to an audience, both virtually and in the room, and the idea that events will become not just in a central place for a good while, but in a central place. And the spoke portion of it, I think, is an opportunity for brands, and it's an opportunity for the people in our industry to really back up and think about how they tell a story. Obviously, safety is key, you know, safety first, the best motto ever, and it's going to be a while before we're back. And I don't think we're going to go back to what we did. I think it's going to continue to be both virtual and live. And some of that's just because of budget. I mean, every downturn we've been through in our 31 years, and I'm sure Andreas can attest to this, our clients budgets reduced by a good 30, 40, 50% for a while, and how you bring technology, the right technology and help them adjust their creative to get to as broad an audience as possible, has to be smartly done. Well, you just said the key word creative. Yep. Well, I want to thank all of my guests David Adler, John Vadino, and Andrea Michaels. You all are amazing. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead.