WHY WE LOVE THE LIVE EVENTS AND ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS!

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today I have three amazing guests. I have Rebecca Linder from Linder Global. She is the founder and CEO. I have Ted Maccabee. Ted is with Strictly FX and he is the founder and CEO as well. And I also have Jim Kelly. He is the vice president for Fern Expo. Everyone, welcome to the show today. Thank you. Great to be with you, les. Thanks, Les. Great to be here. I'm super excited that you all are joining me today. This is a podcast number 36, and we have talked in our podcast about every which way to Sunday, about virtual and about all the challenges we've had over the year. And I decided today's podcast was going to be a really simple one. It's why I love the live events entertainment business, and I decided to get three people that were super passionate about what they do and talk to them about why we're in this business. And as the world turns back right side up and we get to go back to what we love to do. I'd like to get your perspective. So I'm going to throw the first question to Rebecca. Rebecca, tell me why the live events business is exciting for me. The excitement lies in so many things, but the opportunity to bring a diverse universe of people together to celebrate, to solve a problem, to to work on things together and be able to then provide the experience and both contextually as well as and from a content perspective to me is just thrilling and I really believe it changes people's lives. And that is part of our vision, is that we want to work with people that are going to be impacted by the work that we do, and they go out and thrive and change the world. And to me, that's what really fuels me. I love your answer. I want to change the world and I want to change people's lives. I think that's awesome. I'm going to throw this the same question to Ted, and I must tell everyone Ted's company, Strictly FX, blows things up, does pyro, does things that are really cool. So, Ted, I'm going to ask the same question to you. Why is this events, business, this entertainment, live events business exciting to you? I think the public wants moments. They want moments of excitement and they want moments that inspire them. And I think that like from a little from when I was a little kid, I loved the idea of going to shows and getting excited about it. It got me excited about life and it's amazing to be a part of it. It's amazing to sit back and watch, for instance, a Super Bowl, for example, and those those great moments that happen in it. So that's that's why I think it's just and it's different all the time. You're not coming in and doing the same thing over and over again. There's challenges every day. And if it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you. Right? So every day I'm being changed by the challenge here. So. Well I like the I like your comment about the moments. And no one wants to miss a moment and they want to experience the moment. There's nothing like being at a whether it's a sporting event or a concert in some moment is created. You know, that's ultimately amazing. Jim, maybe you could share your thoughts. Why is the live events business exciting to you? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And to build off on what Rebecca and Ted said, you know, they both talked about change. And for me, one of the things that really, really makes this business exciting is, is change through growth. I think one of the things we do with live events is we create growth. We create growth for businesses that attend trade shows. We create growth for individuals from the education they receive at events. We create growth from the concept of experiences, whether it be a concert, whether it be a sporting event. And this growth can impact on both personally and professionally. And not only that, but this this growth creates growth for organizations and communities through events. And, you know, there's a meaningful impact that that creates economically and jobs. And you look at the opportunities that our industry provides for growth. And I think that was really accentuated this year through the challenges we had in as an industry. You know, I think the event business is a key component to many hospitality cities. You know, whether it's the restaurants, it's the hotels or anything that services hospitality. And we've really seen that in the last year. How how that impact can really be detrimental to the success of a city. But ultimately we're going to get back to business at hand and on business at hand. I'm throwing the next question to Rebecca, and Rebecca, of all the types of shows you do, and you've done all kinds of whether it's experiential corporate meetings, expos, anything you've done, what brings you the most happiness. So if I told you we're going to do this kind of show, you'd be like, yes, I'm so excited to go back and do one of those. You know, I think really the public facing those big, big public facing events like we did the the 50th anniversary of the the Apollo landing on the moon with the, you know, you know, two evenings of 500,000 people on the mall and eyeing as they saw the projection on the Washington Monument to me having that, you know, that diverse group of people sort of share that same moment. Ted, I'm sure it's like you, when you get those oohs and odds, when the fireworks go off, it's just like, oh my God, 500,000 people did that in the same moment. To me, that's thrilling. And I know there have different viewpoints, different backgrounds, different religions and all of that. And to me, that's really, really satisfying. It brings me a tremendous amount of joy and tears. I will, I just want you to know it also adds a certain level of, we'll say, stress or pressure to make sure it goes well, because the stakes are very high when you have that audience. Right? Yes. You know that many people watching, Ted, I'm throwing it right back to you. Tell me what jazzes you about. What kind of show? If I called you and said, we're going to do one of these, what's that show look like? You know, I enjoy some of the. Really. Laid back, smaller shows, actually, the ones where we really get to play a little bit more. That's that's where I derive a lot of joy out of these smaller shows. But at the same time, you go to a stadium show for Coldplay. I've been, for instance, I've been to I've been to Coldplay shows that we've done in a full stadium of, you know, 60, 70,000 people. And just to be part of these moments, the whole audience is part of a full play show. If you've been there and just to be there and just it's it's moving to me. So but I do love the small shows still to this day. So, so, so what is it about the small shows that give you that sense of intimacy? Or when you say they give you some flexibility as to doing things, what is the experience different? I mean, typically we get to do a little bit different stuff. We get to push the envelope a little bit on effects and I don't know, I feel more attached to the artists. And our business is kind of built for concert tour, so we don't do a ton of like corporate shows. We do one here or there. But, I mean, our main thing is to do these live shows. So that's how we built the company. So I think it's just that. There's volumetric effects and things we do with lasers. I mean, most people don't know where the largest laser company in North America. So the lasers are and there's so much new technology we're playing with. And I think the other part of it, I enjoy watching some of our new, younger guys doing shows and sitting back behind them and see how excited there they are to be doing it. I think that that's that's part of the joy I get. It's not just the show itself is seeing my people succeed and their comfort zone. Got it. Okay, Jim, what kind of show are we going to do that's going to make you really happy? I'll tell you this. I'm going to go on the record and say, I'm any show where we loading trucks and then I don't need I don't need a lot of different kinds of shows, but shows where we're loading trucks is the shows that kind of jazz me right now. But Jim, what are your thoughts? This was a tough one when for me to think about, you know, and I think when it when it comes down to it, you know, I realize that I've been very fortunate to be be doing this for a while. And, you know, it's that's a good thing. I don't think any other industry would have me. However, I've had some great connections with people in the industry, and for me, it's a show or any that where I have a personal connection to the organizer. You know, to me that's, you know, when you can do something with someone who you consider a friend, you know, that's really that's really meaningful and it brings it all, all full circle to me. Because at the end of the day, this is truly and people first industry and we, you know, build great relationships with our clients who become friends. You know, we have customers that we might not see, but twice a year, but we see them on a regular basis and you start to grow relationships with them. And so I think it's anywhere there's an event where there's a personal connection. I love it. And my the beginning, middle and end of our business is about relationships. So I totally concur. Okay. We're going to take a slightly different turn here. I'm going to throw this to Rebecca. Rebecca, maybe you could share with us. How did you end up in a career in in this business. How did you get in this business and what brought you to doing live events? Well, you could have done anything right. So I was a poly sci econ major with an acting minor, and I had decided that I was going to pursue acting and had actually got into a graduate program and got a little sick. And so I decided, oh, maybe that's a sign. So let me immerse myself in that world a bit. And I did, and I really what I realized, but from a production perspective perspective, I realized I really loved kind of the back of the house more than the front of the house. It also didn't hurt that I vomited every time I got on stage before I got on stage, so I thought that wasn't sustainable. And then I combined that with a food background from a hospitality perspective and and started at a catering company, worked for a theater company, and then started my own business at 26 and realized it was really the behind the scenes, the big productions that I loved from all the touch points, you know, from the data all the way through to the live experience, obviously the back of the house is a little more calming than the front of the house in the sense of being on stage. And, you know, I'm glad you made that choice because so many good things came out of it. Hey. Hey, Ted, would you share with us how you got in this business? It's interesting. I actually graduated with a music degree in performance, and so I was. I was an excellent tuba player once upon a time. You never know when someone calls you up and Rebecca and says, hey, I need a tuba player. Now we know we could call Ted. Yeah. Hidden skills. Ted. Hidden skills. And the problem was, I was around people. I was around somebody that was so much better than me, I realized that I just that wasn't the direction I wanted to go. And I started out with a job selling in data processing. And then I quit that job one day. I just quit it because I knew I wasn't happy there. And one of my buddies, I owned a small production company that did some sporting events and a little bit of laser, dabbled in a little bit of everything. And that's where I kind of that's where I met my, my partner at, and we split off from the company. From there we were let go because he wanted to be a producer. So we started our own company then. So and well, that's an interesting little road. Yeah, yeah. Jim, could you share with us how you ended up in this business? What was the how the cosmos align that put you in this business? Yeah. For for me. You know, it started in college, you know, and Rebecca, I too was a political science major with a concentration. But I had a concentration in Russian history and political theory. You're like my brother. You might need Russian history. I might need to know about the oligarchies of Russia growing up in the D.C. area. You know, politics is a sport. And I think everybody kind of follows that path to some degree. But so for me, it's starting in college, you know, I was involved in student government. And then I got involved in the Campus Activities board. And that's really when I. Started my kind of love of events. You know, I remember my first trip to the National Association of Campus Activities Convention with the then dean of Student affairs. And I realized that this this event thing, I like doing this this event. And, you know, much to my parents dismay, I, you know, took that degree and went to work for the Hyatt Regency in Baltimore, you know, because it was, you know, a newer hotel back then. And it was a great opportunity to kind of get my my feet into the event business. And then, you know, I transitioned from there, you know, over, over to the the contracting side of the business. Right, you know, and focused primarily on on the association market. Right. Living in the D.C. market, it's that's kind of a very, you know, natural progression in transition. And that's that's where it all started. So so my my next question is to Rebecca. And I want you all to think about this one. If someone was coming out of college today and maybe whether you had a cousin or a nephew or a niece, and they said, I want to be in the events business, I want to produce events or I want to I want to be part of it. What advice would you give them? And I'm throwing this to Rebecca first. Yeah, I think probably two pieces. One is just make sure they were clear on what events are because so often people are like, oh, I do nice parties in my house. And I'm like, not it. And just sort of and I think, you know, Ted, you touched on it. I mean, it just comes with challenges. But as you and your quote and I'm literally going to quote you, if if it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you. And and understanding the sort of the, the immense challenges that would be ahead of them around events, but how satisfying it is to sort of be immersed in that and being solving problems all the time. And then I think the other piece is them understanding of how diverse the universe is. I mean, because you, you, regardless of how you come at it, you end up immersing yourself in sort of who your clients are. And so you learn an immense amount of knowledge about a variety of topics of industries. And, you know, if that is of interest, you know, I always would say go for it. If you're more of a process, sit down one thing at a time person, you know it's not really for you. But if you're really interested in exploring, you know, and have a little bit of ADHD like me, this is the business for you. ADHD. Perfect. Sign me up. Sign me up. So, Ted, I'm your nephew, and I'd like you to tell me your advice. I just told you I want to be in the event business. And would you try to talk me out of it? I wouldn't try to talk you out of it. I would make sure that you understood that. It's it's. You know, this is the this is the thing is, I have my the staff that we have here since we're a touring company mainly is that we have our gypsies who come and go as they please and they go out on tour and I don't see them for six months at a time. And then we have our people internally are hard doing the day to day stuff. So it's and it's never the same. But if you want that job that's going to give you 9 to 5 the same thing. This is not the business for you at all. So banker's hours are out. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Absolutely. Out. So no banker's hours. Okay, Jim, give me some advice. I'm saying to you, I want to be in this business. What you do is cool and you and fun and. Well, I Jim, I don't think you blow up things like Ted does, but you still do fun things. So what advice would you give me? Yeah, I don't blow things up intentionally when, if I, if something comes up that I'm involved in with things that went terribly wrong. Right. You know, I, I probably have a slightly different perspective. And my, my thought is, is give it a shot. You know, I think one of the things is there are so many transferable professional skills, you know, in industry that, you know, be a finance, be it logistics, be a communication and problem solving. And to build off of what Rebecca said. Right? A lot of people don't understand what it is. And I think even as event professionals, us talking about it still doesn't do it justice for somebody that's looking for, you know, a, a career. And our industry provides so much that even if you decide it's not for you and you choose another career path, you're going to get some great transferable skills that are that are going to help you along the way. Right? I think we still struggle from an education perspective. And, you know, organizations and universities that have programs, it's certainly grown and changed over the years, and we're making great strides. But I think there's just so many opportunities, you know, be a designer. And I would take a slightly different perspective. I think there are some opportunities for people that want to work a more regular job, you know, regular hours if they want to be on the design side and marketing communications side that fit into more of a, you know, Monday through Friday, 9 to 5 model, but still do something in a very, very exciting business and supporting those individuals that are out there on the front lines of the event business. So, you know, my my thought is give it a shot, see how it plays out for you. And if it doesn't work, you're going to have some really transferable skills that other industries would look at very positively. Got it. Okay, we're moving on. My next question is to Rebecca. Rebecca, could you just tell me how you think the industry has changed in the last 20 years? You know, actually, I'm going to pick up on what Jim just said. I mean, I think Jim is just just in talking about how, you know, contemplating if there is a 9 to 5 position in terms of marketing incomes. I mean, I think just as you talked about it, that's how it's changed is one aspect of it. I mean, they events used to be sort of this kind of thought of as this one kind of moment in time. And now I see, you know, events are has kind of have permeated everything, right? Creating experiences and delivering experiences. I mean, whether it's a celebration, whether it's a strategy to, you know, to to move corporate objectives ahead, whether it's a concert. I mean, I think people now interpret events and understand that anything really can be an experience. And if you invest in it, you will likely get a bigger ROI or an impact or and as a result, I think things have become much more sophisticated over that time frame. So I think the landscape has grown. I think we really every industry is, you know, embrace professional service, seems embraced in our business is included. And and we've become much more sophisticated. I think certainly as we support, I think we as an industry still need to become more sophisticated as it relates to advocating for ourselves. And I think COVID has been a great example of that. But I think in terms of how we show up in the conversation, we are extremely valuable and strategic in our contribution. Okay. All right. Ted, can you share the business from 20 years ago in the business today, maybe something that's different in my world, it's it's constantly changed. The permitting, fire departments, local municipalities, municipalities, things like that have changed dramatically over the years. Obviously, after the white snake incident or it wasn't great white any. Anytime something bad happens, then laws get created to to avoid potentially that in the air. And for us in particular paperwork, things like that. Compliance insurance is astronomical for us. That compared to what it was 20 years ago, I think and oftentimes people think that we're a bunch of, you know, we're a bunch of pyro crazy people or whatever, but it's very professional. My teams are much I think it's a much more professional business than it used to be. Again. And I look at things from this concert touring perspective. So no more Wild West. No, it's not the Wild West anymore. Everything is done in advance. Paperwork's done in advance. Every city is different. They've added fees. You know, it's just as over the years it's just it's it's gotten different. And we've had to change with, with the, the economies of every little different municipality. And we do worldwide touring. So it changes and it's just we're running through more and more and more paperwork every day. I mean, I have people that that's all they do is push paperwork. So it sounds like it's become more bureaucratic. Yes. Yeah. And one of the things is, you know, as a company, our goal is to wear service company, right. So you shouldn't lose any hair on the top of your head or get gray over us having a permit for a show in Sao Paulo or wherever it might be, even though I've lost most of my hair. You know, that's kind of. But it's. I want you to know, Jim and I and you all share something in common. We don't have bushy heads of hair, but you can't. I always say it's a busy highway up there. That's. That's what. That's why I'm here. I just want you to. And we're happy about that. So, Mr. Jim Kelly, could you please share with me how the business for you has changed in the last 20 years and how you see it less. Can I ask you to fax that question to me? Oh, what is a fax machine? Fax machine? So I would say my my answer is tied to technology. You know, you know, I think if you remember that the iPhone has really only been around 14, 15 years now, and look at all we do with events on our phones from the time we leave our house. And we get to the airport with a boarding pass, hotel room access, QR codes, mobile apps, and even podcasts. Right? Without technology, we wouldn't be able to have this experience. And you know, while I'm a big supporter of event technology, I think it's really important we understand that it can never replace the in-person engagement and connection, and we have to be really careful to use it as an amplifier, you know, to complement, expand and enhance the in real life experience. But I think the technology has made our industry better in so many ways. I mean, look at what advancements Ted has had in his side of the business with lasers and other technologies. Look at what Rebecca has has done. I was fortunate enough to went down to the mall and saw the rocket on the monument, right with the projection mapping for the NASA celebration. And all of that technology has created great enhancements to the event experience in so many ways. And so for me, it hands down its technology. Okay. All right. So now the next question is Rebecca. As live events return post-pandemic, what might look different and will the audience show up 100%? The audiences will show up is my is my feeling I think I think people are going to be a little bit more discriminant in how what they attend, and I think there's going to need to be a sort of a higher value proposition for events. But I think people are going to be, you know, anxiously awaiting and and looking forward to going in terms of how they might look different. I think in our world. I do think, Jim, to your point there, that hybrid concept will remain. I think technology will be important in supporting the live experience, I should say in-person experience, because this is very much Zoom as a live experience. But, you know, the in-person experience, I think will be supported by technology in a way that it wasn't before. In terms of hybrid audiences who can attend. I think people are finding that there's an opportunity there that they weren't leveraging, and now, you know, they're going to. So. So, Ted, will the concert goers show up? And what will look different depends on how soon, right? I think they'll show up. I hope they'll show up. What will be will the layout be different for the audience? I just don't know. I think that, you know, the one thing that I know is it goes back to your last question, which I think is like with the live nations of the worlds and the ages of the world. So it's a much bigger business than it used to be. It was more of a, I don't know, it was a smaller kind of mom and pop kind of business with the local promoters and stuff, but now it's really pushed by that. So I think they're going to figure out a way because the industry is so big now, it's going to navigate through all the problems and issues and things like that. So got it. And Jim, tell me, will I be going to a trade show anytime soon? Will the audience, the attendees show up? What are your thoughts? Yeah. So maybe I'll start with how it's going to look different. You know my belief it's going to look many. It's going to look better in many ways. You know, the past year has shown us how organizations and people crave and need live engagement. And I think when you look at Americans and American society, particularly talking about our market here, you know, let's face it, we have very short memories, for better or worse, we put the past behind us. You know, my belief is that in 22, the pandemic will actually have very little impact on our industry. And I might I might be an outlier there. But, you know, and look, let's face it, there's issues with vaccines and you know, and if that requires a booster, I think it'll be accepted. Just like we get a flu shot every year. But think about some of the changes that happen with air travel post nine over 11. You know, we thought that was going to have a devastating impact. But now look at the upside of what's come out of that at the airline experience. When you talk about clear, TSA PreCheck, etc., all of us travel a lot, right? I can leave my house 60 minutes before a flight and not even think about if I'm going to miss the flight because of clear, right? Because I know I'm going to zip right through the airport and I'm going to be there and at my gate. So in that way, there have been things that have come out of, you know, negative experiences that have enhanced alive event, you know, experience overall. So I think, you know, it's going to be very positive moving forward. And again, I might be the outlier in this conversation amongst our industry in general, but I think we're going to see very little impact in 22. Well that's my last that's my last question actually. So I want you might as well just go ahead and throw the answer out. It says what will 22 look like. And, you know, predict the future. Yeah I think that I think people are going to show up. I think some events will struggle. But I think the reality is those events that are struggling, we're probably struggling anyway. And and this just accentuated or accelerated challenges they were having, you know, look, I think there's going to be a compressed return Q3 and Q4 of this year. And I think we're going to see a full ability to return in 2022. And there may be some reduced attendance due to personal choices and people saying, I'm just not comfortable yet. You might have some organizations that say, hey, we were we were impacted. Our cash reserves were tapped in in 2021. You know, where maybe we sent eight people. We're going to send 5 or 6 people. You know, there might be some downscaling of attendance, but I think we will have the full ability to return in 22. And then from an economic perspective, I believe there'll be a full return in 2023. Okay, Ted, take me to 2022. Describe what 22 will be like. Tell me the future. I just need to write it down so I know what to expect. Well, I can I already have a picture of it, because many of my tours are beginning to talk about 2022 already, so the bookings are going in. I think they're working really hard to get those going, so I believe it's going to be very close to what, 2018 now in the touring world, partially because of the some of the tours they recycle every other year. I think there's just a I mean, I'm looking at my paperwork. I've got a I've got a board over here, my left shoulder that tells me who's been talking to me about what and what they're booking right now. So the big tours seem to be not afraid to do 2022 right now. And I think this later this year is going to be one offs in the concert touring world. That's what it seems like from what I'm seeing right now. So I expect the full, very busy year in 2022. I like a busy year in 2022. Rebecca, would you finish us off and share with us your thoughts on the future of 2022 and what our business might look like. I think it's going to come roaring back. Truly. I think, you know, people are you know, we're seeing the same thing that you're seeing, Ted, people that were thinking about kind of resurrecting their event in this year, there's too much insecurity. So they're going all in on 2022, putting money down, starting to sort of using this year as a transitional year in the virtual sense to to create excitement and momentum for 2022. Again, I think the the attendees are going to be a bit more discriminant, but I also think the company association, however, the organization is also going to be a little bit more discriminant because I think they're going to really want that experience to be so great for their for themselves, for their board members and for their attendees. So, you know, from my perspective, I see it. I think, you know, we might still wear masks every once in a while, but in terms of events fully being available to people, I think it's that's my prediction. Well, one of the things I love about today's podcast is I have three super positive people and amazing people at the same time. And I want to thank you, Rebecca, and this is your second time back on our podcast. So you're a second timer and Jim Kelly and Ted Maccabee, I appreciate all of you joining our podcast today. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead, everybody. Good job. Thanks a lot for joining. Thank you for having me. Thank you.