WORKING WITH IN-HOUSE AV TEAMS

Hello, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is dedicated to the future of the live events business, bringing together industry experts. Hello, production world. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Today, I have three amazing guests. I have Karim Kassab, who is the Senior Vice President of Technical Production for Hartmann Studios. I have Aaron Levinthal, who is the Chief Experience Officer for MAS. And I have Dan Wilcox. He's the owner of DCW Productions. Everybody, welcome to the show today. Hello, and nice to be with you all. Thanks for having us. Guys, today we're going to talk about something which is near and dear to all of our hearts, as all of you are professionals that work in ballrooms around the world. And you know, our business has changed over many years, and a lot of those spaces that we work in have exclusive arrangements with in-house companies. And while on this podcast, we're not going to mention any company names, we're just going to speak about the industry and what we're experiencing. And I really want to throw the first question to Aaron. Aaron, you know, have you found success working with any in-house organization company to be a good experience, a bad experience? What type of experience do you typically have? Absolutely. Obviously it varies with the group that you're working with, and also more importantly, the property that you're working with. Because there really is a lot of differentiation there. And also the type, right? Like we do a lot of work where we'll be going into a client's, let's say a big client's own offices, where they have full theaters built out. And when you work with those in-house teams, there is a lot of value. They approach it a lot. They approach it similarly to the way I think we all do is how we want to run a show and how we want to work with the teams and the gear. So in those scenarios, it can be really good. That tends not always to be the case when you go into a hotel ballroom or convention center or those kinds of scenarios where when you, when you are told the goal is to stick with the in-house provider or you have no choice at all. It tends to get a little bit more complicated because you're all operating under a different goal, especially when it's not an option. When you're told you have no choice but to use the in-house, then they have a very different goal than what we do. Our goal is to have the best show possible, give our clients a great job and keep the budget as inline as we can. Well, that is not their goal. Their goal is longevity to their employer who is the venue and don't screw it up too much is I think probably the other part of that goal, but that's very different than the goal of delivering the best show possible. We, we like to push the boundaries and the limits sometimes of what we're going to do, never to the point of being unsafe. But when you work with, you know, a vendor who is a requirement and we can get into the financials that drive some of why this is their opinion or their goal later, but it is, they don't like to push the boundaries. They want to do something that it uses the gear they've got, doesn't take their people out of their comfort zones and, you know, doesn't add extra work to what is almost entirely an overly overly stressed working schedule because they do go one right after the other. So, so very, very insightful. Karim, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Have you been having really good in-house experiences, especially with the exclusive services, as Aaron mentioned, where you don't really have choices? Have you felt like they've come across in a fair and equitable way or what's the experience like for you? I think the general answer is no. And I think everybody on my team who collaborates with our clients and then, you know, understands the environment. Like when we find out that we're dealing with an exclusive vendor, the problems tend to sort of domino a little bit. One, right? You're given sort of a rate sheet and it's interesting because the, and what makes the experience not very positive is they keep moving the needle. It used to be as an example, Hey, you're going to rig in a ballroom. So you got to pay for the point fee. You can bring everything else. And then it's like, Hey, you got to pay for the point fee. Then you got to pay for the motor. That's like, Hey, no, now actually you have to pay for the point fee. You have to pay for the motor. Now you have to pay for the trust. And like, so it makes it complicated where you have a client that's coming to you as a professional, giving them real good answers about what the production budget is going to be and what you can achieve. And you're given this variable, just like what Aaron's saying, where the skill level, typically some of my team members kind of chimed in there. It's like generally on an average basis, about 25 to 50% of the staff that they provide is skilled at the level that you would expect them to be with the title that they're presenting them at, right? Whether it's a video person, lighting person or audio. So already you're calculating in your head, well, how much do I have to overbuy to make sure I get the right quality or what kind of ins and outs. So on the top level of the experiences have generally been challenging. And we try to sort of present it like, we're going to be transparent with you, try to be transparent with us. And it just seems to be more and more complicated every year. The other side of it too, less when you ask, you know, what kind of experiences when you're sitting there and you're like, Hey, I'm going to bid my three vendors that I like, I want to use and I'm going to bid them with the in-house vendor. And their pricing is typically like anywhere from 1.75 to 2.5 market rate. And you're like, wait a second. If I have a choice not to use them, that's already going to knock them out of the water. If I'm in a location where I have to use them, I don't know how it's, it's becomes really hard to go to your client and say, we're going to deliver a successful show on budget. And that's been the general experience. So our teams are, they all know the due diligence they have to do to find out what, what are the people that are going to be provided? What kind of gears in-house, when do you immediately go from the gear that's in-house that they might be able to discount to stuff that they're bringing in and charging way over market rate for. So it's a lot, as you can hear, it's a lot of different things. The experience in general is challenging. I think that is the best word challenging and usually expensive would be my answer. I echo almost every single word you said verbatim. Like you're, you're describing the life, the day of the life of someone trying to produce a show and it doesn't matter. That's in most venues, Dan, what are your thoughts? And Dan, you have a unique background because you have worked on the hotel AV side and you're an independent technical director. So what are your thoughts on the fair rigging approach and some of the other exclusives working with the in-house? You know, it seems, it seems that it's, um, it's becoming more and more difficult to get, um, to get real information out of these guys. When you're, when you're on the site visits, when you're walking through the venues, even when you call or you go to the website, there's, there's not a lot of published price sheets anymore. Um, or at least nothing that is to date. I've worked in a venue recently where they would not give us the current price, the 2025 pricing until they publish the rates while they publish the rates on January 31st in 2025, four weeks before the show. So the client had not secured the pricing in their contract ahead of time and locked in the rates for 2000 from 2024. And now we're in 2025, we're four weeks out from the show and their price has basically doubled from the year before. And so. Did you say doubled? Yes. Doubled. I mean, I don't know what premium that we can go back to any of our clients and say, we used to charge X for this either, whether it was a technical person or, or a rental piece of equipment, but we're doubling it. And under what justification can you say that? Right. And what's gone away from that side of the business as well as the traditional three-day weeks discount percentages, the stuff that we've all operated under as a handshake agreement for 30 plus years in this industry and the way that it's worked, I'm now getting billed for seven days on motors. I'm getting billed for, you know, rigging points, plus motors, plus, like you said, plus the truss. I actually had a bill recently with the bolts on it and the truss and the bolts were billed separately. They're charging you for the bolts, charging you for the bolts and you know, and then, you know, the truss bolters and then all that stuff that comes along with it, all the labor that you have to, you know, you have to take in as part of the part of the process. But you know, I, I'm always willing to chalk up any part of that to, to safety, if they're willing to discuss safety. But the thing that I have said is that if they're going to insist that we use their trust, then I'm going to have the client insist that they provide a cert for every piece of that truss because I have providers that I work with some on this call. We have cert on every piece of the truss that I use. And I can guarantee that the in-house can't produce those because they're getting their cross running that trust most of the time anyway. So if let's make it a safety issue, let's make it a safety issue. But if it's not, then it's just a, it's just a money grab and let's talk about what we can do to get a fair and equitable price so the client can continue to do their production. So, so you brought up Dan, a good subject. And I think everyone kind of, um, kind of touched on it a little bit. You called it the money grab. I'm going to say the irony of it is, and what I've seen in firsthand in bids that include rigging, that you're paying to buy all the equipment every single time you do the show. So if I'm an in-house company and I'm doing rigging and you're going to buy my gear and pay for it a hundred percent, and then I get to rent it the next time, the next time, that would seem to be the most profitable thing in the industry. Well above any AV piece of equipment, maybe the flip chart it would compete with because it has no electrical parts, but, but is there a possibility? I mean, I'm go back into the, into the process of how a show gets booked. There's a meeting planner that is going to go ahead and go ahead and secure the space. And there's some negotiation between that meeting planner and, and, and you, Aaron, as a meeting producer, do you typically get involved in that process or do they hand you a contract and say, here's our contract for the hotel. Let's go make the best deal. Because I have to imagine the production value gets, gets compromised because you can't deliver the best show when you have to pay all these crazy fees. What are your thoughts here? Yeah, I would, I would say there's a couple of things, right? It's do we get involved before the client signed the contract? Usually the second year on, we do. Usually the first year they'll hand us something and then we explain everything that was wrong with what they agreed to. And as it comes to pass and they get to experience it firsthand during the show, they do tend to come back the second year and say, okay, before we sign this contract, can you look over this? Can you make sure? So, uh, I would just say, uh, our clients tend to learn that, okay, you're high. It's, it's a sentence I say a lot. You're hiring us to give you our opinions. So you might want to listen to them from the very beginning because we do know what we're looking at. We do know specifics and we understand the games that get played a lot in these type of venues and working with these type of in-house vendors. It's a very, it's a very consistent, you know, scenario as to what's going on. Um, but also understanding what an in-house vendor is up against because I don't completely blame them for the, the prices and the quality of gear and the quality of labor and technician because quite simply they're dealing with almost a mafia scenario where 50% of what they make kicks back up and then all of a sudden they are trying to do, and none of us operate in a 50% margin. I mean, I can't even, I dream about such things. So then I wake up sweaty. Um, but so they are put in these positions and I'm going to say they, as the people we always deal with, not the executives who we very rarely get to meet. Um, they are put in these positions of trying to stretch older gear, and possibly less expensive technicians to make the job financially work for the goals that they've been tasked with. Karim, your thoughts. Do you think the meeting planner can help us? Is that an educational thing? How do you approach these tough negotiations to get the best outcome for your clients? It's a, it's a, it's a sort of a points of consternation. So just like Aaron is saying, they're there. Sometimes we have new clients and we show up to the event and it's like, Oh, here's a contract. It's like, Hey, you've got a general session for 4,000 attendees and you've got less than a day to load it in. So not only are there mistakes in the contract about the loading time and load out time, but then it's like, Oh, and by the way, here's the list of exclusives. So one of our goals with our parent company and with the people that are at the forefront of working with clients is trying to get ahead of that and saying the value that we can present, just like Aaron was saying, the value we can provide you if you bring us in prior to signing a contract is a mess or can be, or at least you can try to get rid of all the landmines that are in there and at least make everybody aware of what the potential is from that. Once like Aaron was saying, once the contract sign and we're involved in year to year basis, we try to work with the client and instilled into them and with our buyers. It's like, let's do the contract negotiations. Let's try to cap the increases that they can do with their exclusives on a year to year basis. Let's try to get some incentive back to us because you know what Dan was just talking about, like double the rate over a year when they publish, you know, that particular vendor, when they publish their rates, I was just talking to one of my team leads two weeks ago and they were telling me the point fee in a location was $1,200 and I'm like, wait, I'm not, I haven't been around that long. I remember when point fees were in the early hundreds. So these are again, come back to this whole thing about what's in the exclusives and what. What do they have to do? And so I think we provide a value to our clients by trying to get ahead of that as much as possible and try to bolster as much as possible and prevent it from being a complete sort of financial loss, right? Because some of those contracts are intended, if you don't know what you're doing, and I'm not implying that anybody doesn't know what they're doing, but if you don't pay attention to it, there are massive loopholes in there where you're going to be paying through the nose. So it's not a fair and equitable environment. And it's not like they're trying to do right by you as well as you're trying to do right by your client. They're in the business for making money. And when the exclusives part comes up in the contracts, yeah, it's a tough battle. Every time we see a new contract, our entire team's like, here's a copy of the contract, go through every single part of the contract, identify what it is. And then we start also doing our own investigation to find out from other vendors and other partners, hey, what's your experience been? If it is expensive, do they at least have strong labor? Do they still have good gear? And I was hearing the concept of them stretching older gear, and that's definitely been the case as well. So I don't really have a clean one-sentence answer for you, Les. I think the role we play is to try to deliver the best show and to try to make sure it's within financial goals that have been established between us and the client. This sort of, you used the word mafia, which it's always been in the back of my mind, but I don't use that word, but the fact that somebody can turn around and tell you, no, you're wrong, and this is what you're going to pay, and this is what you have to do, and it doesn't always make sense, that's when you feel a little bit like, why do I want to be in this position? I can't guarantee that we're going to get it done. And that makes it kind of upsetting and unfortunate, even though we have to work through it. But it sounds like what you do as kind of an effort for your clients is you're really trying to review that contract and those landmines and ultimately try to save money for them and make good choices. It seems like if I were on the production side, every end client needs to figure out who the meeting planner is, and we need Meeting Planner Academy to go through the exclusives so that they get certified on how to negotiate. Dan, have you ever done something like this with any of the production companies you've worked with? Have you ever just advised them in this form or fashion? Absolutely. I actually have some boilerplate stuff that I've been sharing with any and all of my clients that'll listen and take this, and basically it's just an addendum that goes to the hotel contract and it specifies point charges, it specifies electrical charges, it gives literally a menu listing price of everything. The reality is, and then it also calls out all the exclusives as well, it does allow them to retain rigging, it does allow them to retain their standard labor rates. We don't ask them to negotiate labor rates because we want the best people in there doing the electrical, doing the rigging, doing the exclusive pieces. But I can take any hotel contract right now and I can multiply out the number of heads and the number of beds and tell you exactly how much money the hotel is making from rooms. I can take the food and beverage and I can multiply it out, I can take the minimum and it'll show you exactly what the hotel expects to make off of food and beverage. What I can't do with any contract in this country right now is pull it in and tell you how much your production is going to cost, because it's not published, it's not in there, and it's open to the whims of a vendor who works for the hotel. I think that's something very important for us to keep in mind, it's also very important for our clients. If we can educate them and get in front of this, it's about getting it in the contract before it's signed, because then we're negotiating on the back end if we're not, and it's really from a losing position. But if we can get it in there ahead of time, what we can do is we can really negotiate against the pieces that give the hotel a little bit more backing for us and for our clients with their vendor to go in and say, okay, this is what you're going to do because this business is important to us as a hotel. Ultimately, any venue that I ever worked in on the in-house side, when it was part of the organization, not a third party, so I'm not really divulging a whole lot here, but the AV revenue for a property was at max 3-5% of the total revenue of the property, even on some of the largest properties that I've worked on in the country. So ultimately the hotel, they care about that revenue, but it's a need to have, it's not something that they would prefer to not be in that business, they're in the hotel business, they're in the food and beverage business, they're not in the AV business, which is why they all got out of the AV business and started third partying this years ago, because it's not the bread and butter of what they do and they don't want to be experts at it, which is why they hire it out just like they do town park for valet. It literally is traded as the same type of thing, it's a revenue share and that's where they get their little bit of money, but it's just enough to cover it so that they don't have to worry about it anymore. So the reality is if you can negotiate against the food and beverage, against the rooms, you can get the client to negotiate against those pieces, then you can get preferred pricing on everything else if you just give them the numbers to play with and say, here's what it is. I actually had one client a few years ago that we actually raised the room rate to the hotel by $2 a night. We gave them $2 a night more so that it took their, what they call the star report and their rating for the area where they were in, like on International Drive here in Orlando, they rate against the other hotels and that star report includes their average rate. Well, if I give them two more dollars per room night, their average rate goes up. They show up at the top of that report and they look good to all of their shareholders, they look good to the properties, they look good to the rest of the town and it drives their actual revenue, but we got rigging and internet for free. So it was a negotiating point. Yeah. But we gave them money where it counts for the hotel because they keep 100% of that money. So let me ask this question. I'm back to Aaron. Aaron, do you, your clients have finite budgets and they are, you know, whatever the magic number is, is there ever a time where you have to go back to a client and say, we'd like to do this, but to do this part of the show, you're going to have to compromise on something because the in-house cost is so astronomical. You're having to compromise the production, which in my opinion is the worst outcome for a client because, you know, we're all trying to deliver these amazing shows. Yeah. So, I mean, we do go back when and whether that is pitching an idea that is outside of the original scope or the kind of level of creative we were talking about, we will go back and say, this is the part we can do in budget and then this is something we might be able to do if you're interested in it for this much more. We can try and find some of that money in the budget. And those are conversations that take place when that conversation is. The requirements of the venue are making us pay so much more than what we originally planned for in the budget, that is always a terrible conversation. And the way we avoid those conversations is when we know we're going into those type of venues, the budget we start with is so heavily padded on these line items that they get called out every time. It can't possibly cost $150,000 to do internet. Yeah, no, it might. And they won't tell us. So if they're not going to tell us how much it's going to cost in advance, I got to put the worst case scenario because you don't want me coming back. And, you know, the clients who have been doing this for a while, they get it. They understand it. They know how to have that part of that conversation. You know, well, let's let's assume it'll be a little bit less. But I know we've talked about it. So, you know, we can work together on it. Do you think internet for $150,000 is a fair price? No, not unless it's being installed for the first time. These are nuts. Well, that includes the installation. Interesting. Interesting. Kareem, what are your thoughts on compromising the production value and not delivering the show that might be what we're really trying to achieve? Because the in-house, like Dan said, they didn't give you the price and they came back to you with this crazy price. Either the client has to accept an increase or you have to say, well, we're going to have to maybe reduce something in the show. How do you approach that? Yeah, well, first of all, it is it is a like Aaron was saying, it's a terrible conversation to have where you're if you haven't been preemptive and the exclusive part of the contract starts coming in two or three times, what you've already thought was going to be like a pretty like solid number. And I think the bigger picture here that's really unfortunate, you talk about it and Dan was really sort of I love the ideas and the approach in regards to negotiating in the right location, giving the venues money where it counts to offset some of the costs. Client comes to us and they're like, hey, we've just gotten this approved by our executive team. We've got this amount of dollars, right? We're going to put on a three day event. Our meeting planner already booked the venue. Like, OK, and then I know. So we're like, is that what you cringe? Is that what? Yes, because we're like, you know, as we grow our relationships with our clients, they know more and more that they are missing out if they're doing that. But it's so unfortunate for us to have like a creative session with them. Talk about how you're going to deliver this impactful moment that will be held at a venue and up the reputation of the venue if it continues to happen. And to have to say we can only go up to this level because there is such a large cost factor that some of the things that would be really great options are part of the show you cannot deliver on if you're being fiscally, you know, not conservative, but fiscally reliable to your client. You can't go back to them and say, hey, sorry, but, you know, the labor for this part is seventy five thousand dollars over. I hope you're OK with that. We would never get that client back. Right. And it's just so in doing our due diligence and and trying to get to the right place to get an idea sold and then realizing what the environment is, it's a hard message to give. And it ends up happening also internally with our creative team where you're like, look, I know you want to levitate this stage in the middle of an arena. I know that you want to, you know, lift everything and go. We can't afford that. We have to come in with a different kind of creative and we have to mitigate the possibility of these outrageous fees. And so that's ultimately what it is, is that because and this is my opinion, this is not substantiated, but because some of those third party vendors have shareholders that they're responding to and they're continuing to raise the rates in a way that is not marketplace. Correct, I don't believe in regards to negotiations, checks and balances, they're ultimately reducing the positive experiences that can be had in the venues that they're at. So even there, their goal is to gain more revenue and to do more shows, potentially that gives them their their their dampening the effect of the venues. And I don't think they I don't think that conversation happens. I'm not really sure, but that's really the unfortunate part. So, yes, it is a part where we've had to curtail the level of creativity, the type of thing that we were going to deliver based on pending, somewhat murky cost centers that we just don't have finite answers on. It's been unfortunate. So, yes, we go through that. Interesting. Dan, I want to throw this to you slightly differently. Are there, let's just say, friendlier venues and not so friendly venues like when you go into maybe this venue and we don't we won't mention any names. But but this venue, they're a little bit more reasonable. And that tenure, they're very unreasonable. You know, it's it's funny because I could not pinpoint it to an area of the country. I could not pinpoint it to a specific company or even a partnership between the hotel company and that and the AV provider or whoever it is that's in-house is providing these exclusive services. Obviously, we've been in some properties where rigging, rigging, Internet and electrical are three different vendors. Some properties, it's one. So I think a lot of times where you've got the ability to negotiate multiple things against what they're looking for as far as their revenue, I think that puts you in a better position if you can come to the table with kind of a full bag of here's what our client's looking for. I need you guys to partner with us to to work through this so the client can have the best event. I think a lot of times you can you can work towards that because that's ultimately the guys on site and the guys that are working with you. That's what they want as well. They do want the client to have a good event. They want a good experience. They've got five bosses they have to answer to for revenue and for client satisfaction scores and for hotel satisfaction scores and whether the hotel is happy with them. So I think there's there's incentive there for everybody to to do this well. I just I couldn't tell you that there's a particular like magic to one thing or another. I've been very surprised at some properties that I thought were going to be very difficult to work in. And I've been in some properties that, you know, as the leadership has changed there on the you know, on the vendor side, it's also the personality of the property has changed as well. So there's really no there's no way of telling up front. I will I will say this, though, I have found I've got a couple of clients that have some multi-year contracts and hotels and some of the vendors that have been there have been the same salesperson or same director. And when we've been able to put these negotiation pieces in place in the contract, I actually feel like there's a sense of relief on their part when they read this stuff on paper and they're like, OK, you know what you're looking for. You know exactly what you're asking for. You need a four hundred and two hundred here in the general session. You need this. You need that. Great. We'll put the price together. And it's no it's no fuss for them to be able to put together a quote based on things that you already know. So I think going in prepared really kind of puts you in a position to set you up for success and they'll, in turn, set you up for success. Do you know from all of what I've heard from you guys, it's echoing something very similar experience. It reminds me of that movie network. Many years ago, there was this movie network where it was a newscaster who sent everyone to their windows and open your window and scream, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it. It is it is a it's a thing that everyone on this call, what you do is put out amazing shows. The creativity, the design, the execution, all the things that you do are to make this pixie dust magic and make. Your client's message shine. That's what you do. And we play our part in whatever elements we can do. But it seems like the in-house has created these hindrances that you have to jump over these hoops so you can actually deliver the amazing show that you've promised. And it's it's this form of negotiation. And it's just a lot tougher today than it might have been 20 years ago. So one one story came to mind. I was in one of the big hotels in Orlando and I was looking up at the rigging set up and and I said, well, how much is the rigging for this? And let me guess. Eighty five thousand. He said, no, it's one hundred. And I said, well, can you explain to me how you get to this price? And and in the comment that came back from this person was the hotels and the venues need their revenue stream. So we said, look, as long as you make us exclusive, we'll just keep raising the prices. But there has to be a diminishing return where people will not use rigging. They will just use ground supported. They might not use power and use a generator outside. You know, that scenario, it's just there has to be at some point everyone has a threshold of what they can actually realistically get to get done. And also, I think sometimes people might consider not working in a venue because of the rules. So when you have so many different challenges and hoopla and things that have to overcome, that might be a deterrent if you're helping doing venue selection. And I don't know, Kareem, if you or Aaron, do you all get involved in any venue selection? Yes, yes. Yeah. So so if I were giving advice to any end client or their meeting planners, it sounds like really the smartest thing they can do is to engage early and negotiate. You're the time to negotiate has to be before they sign, because once they sign, you've got this bill of goods that is it's too late. And that's when if they really want the business, especially I think what Daniel was saying, those heads and beds and food and beverage. I mean, if they want that big chunk of money, these are the gotchas. And I think to avoid that process, the best thing they can do is we need to get all the meeting planners of the world to realize to call you guys first and engage you and make sure you can leverage your skill sets and your ability to to get more for them and do a better job. I think that's if there was one message from this podcast, that's what everyone should take away. Meeting planners should essentially listen to this and they should understand that the production companies and the production teams are there to help them deliver amazing things at a fair price. And I think that the real part is the word fair price. And I think that's the part where things get a little bit. How do I say not so good? You know, Les, I dare to imagine a world where a client comes to us and says, here's what I want to do. And we put it together for them and we give them the best design we possibly can. And we put together all the bells and whistles and everything they want. And then we go back to them and say, here's your design. Here's how much this is going to cost. Let's go shop for a venue. And then we find the venue after the fact and we work it out with the venue and say, this is what we're doing in your venue. Can you support this? And this is what it's got. This is what we've got budgeted to support it with food and beverage rooms. All the things that come along with the fact is, you know, we're bringing these folks together to hear a message. They're not there for the rooms. Every hotel has rooms. Every hotel has food and beverage. You got to feed people. You got to get people there. It doesn't matter what airline they're flying. None of that matters. What matters at the end of the day is the message that's being communicated from that stage and throughout the event. And that's what we're there to do is produce that for them. So wouldn't it be great if we could somehow get on the front end of that as opposed to the back end of it? I think that you're starting to speak the gospel of what you can make, you know, Kareem and Aaron deliver even more amazing shows because then they can be leveraged their teams to, you know, to engage at a very, very front end. And it sounds like I think what KarIm and Aaron were saying was something about that second year. Things get easier the second year because, A, there's a certain trust that is developed between the production team and the end client. And they like working with the same people. And and maybe they're a little more skeptical the first year. But but once that you've had success and year after year, and that's a testament to retaining clients over many years because they believe and you build teams that trust. I think that's essential. But at the end of the day, we're here to deliver, as you said, Dan, deliver messages and bring people together. We're in the people gathering business, whether it's in person on a remote stream for the live event, which we hope will never compromise any more live events. We'll just do extra streams for the people that can't go. And I think anyone who gets to work with any of you three are very fortunate because I think you all have amazing talents for what we do. And this is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead. Everybody. Great job. I look forward to seeing you all in ballrooms, convention centers, somewhere where we're bringing lots of equipment, especially big screens of display and sound and lights and making really amazing shows. Everybody. Thank you so much. Thanks, Les. Thank you.